24-02-2003 01:02									#121
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I think the player's AI is managed in MoO3 with development plans. The player sets the broad scope of things and the viceroys do the rest. It sounds good to me.

	24-02-2003 01:04									#122
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep Civ3 may be a bad example, but IMO there could have been some middle ground between 'just watch what the governors do' and 'tell each and every of dozens of cities to add a research lab/mass transit/whatever to their build queue'. Civ3 endgames on large/huge maps are micromanaging nightmares. I'm really hoping that the Moo3 viceroys and develepment plans will make for a different TBS endgame.

You make good points, however, I think you shouldn“t have so many cities in the first place.

Why shouldn“t 10-15 cities serve to represent a *large* empire? I do not understand this 'quantitative' approach at all.

As an intelligent design, look at Chess, or Avalon Hill“s Third Reich. Uncluttered. But still very deep.

	24-02-2003 01:07									#123
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quote: Originally posted by XentWraith Now, let's see, I - and I think I'm not alone on this - would be VERY happy with MOO2 style combat (2D turn based) because it's first of all turn based and that means a lot of detail options can exist - remember boarding ships?

Turn based combat with several-hundred ship battles?

Brilliant idea, that.

I think that the new direction of MOO3 required real-time combat. (Pausable would've been nice) The MOO2 system was unfeasible.

And keep in mind, plenty of MOO1 fans were dissatisfied with MOO2...

Anyway, in my estimation, the biggest mistake of the entire project was _Hasbro's_ decision t lock the game into 800x600 - and Infogrames decision to continue down that road...

-infidel

	24-02-2003 01:11									#124
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by kalbear CT, it doesn't matter what reviewers say at this point. Or even friends. You won't like this game. Even if it did rule and did everything you wanted it to by now, you'd hate it.

This is untrue. (And a bit silly.) Say, someone who I know is rather a sceptic, such as, say, Yin, praised Moo3, this would certainly convince me to give it another look. But that won“t happen, I predict.

And if they now start to totally remake it, with vast complexity, *but* the player making all important decisions, then I certainly will start praising it again.

But that won“t happen, either. So I simply hope the game will not be a success, because then, Moo4 might be different.

	24-02-2003 01:12									#125
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You guys are getting really carried away here:

the AI does NOT run the game for you - all it does it manage your colonies, and when you've got 6 dozen of them, i say "fine - manage away". You can turn the AI off if you are going to have a fit with it, but you won't. You'll kiss it's feet and shower it with gifts of appreciation for not turning MOO3 into a micromanagement hell. It isn't stupid and does a decent job of running the place.

Also, if all you do is click the next turn button, you will certainly lose. Much of the game needs your attention as it should: spying, diplomacy, anything military related, dev plans, ship building and fleet/TF contruction. etc.

The AI steps in where it should: colonizing (if you specifically tell it it may), colony maintenance (if you let it), ship combat (if you let it), ground combat (if you let it), and technology and research (if you let it).

see the point?

Keeping your empire afloat is the AI's job (if you let it). Winning the game is yours.

	24-02-2003 01:13									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Why shouldn“t 10-15 cities serve to represent a *large* empire? I do not understand this 'quantitative' approach at all. As an intelligent design, look at Chess, or Avalon Hill“s Third Reich. Uncluttered. But still very deep.

Maybe 10-15 cities/star systems 'could' represent a large empire in an intellegent TBS design. OTOH, in the original Civ and in the original MoO - IMO both very 'intelligently' designed - 10-15 cities/star systems did NOT represent large empires on anything but the smallest world/galaxy size.

	24-02-2003 01:13									#127
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

On a lighter note:

Jonah Falcon went on a tirade to Brett Todd, talking about his review, right? He said he e-mailed Brett, gave him a piece of his mind, called him a liar. Did the same thing here and on usenet as well.

Well, aside from being rude, it's really funny. Why? Because Brett Todd DIDNT WRITE THIS REVIEW. The writer is Tom Chick.

Brett Todd is one of my fav writers at GamesDomain, and did the bi-weekly column rant for a long time. But he didn't write the review, he hasn't written the review of MoO3, and he hasn't even played the game yet.

So not only did Jonah Falcon misquote me and Tom Chick, he used those misquotes to flame some guy that had nothing to do with the review.

	24-02-2003 01:16									#128
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I've already argued my position thouroughly.. I don't need to back it up again unless someone argues against what I've written.

	24-02-2003 01:19									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Infidel Turn based combat with several-hundred ship battles? .... Anyway, in my estimation, the biggest mistake of the entire project was _Hasbro's_ decision t lock the game into 800x600 - and Infogrames decision to continue down that road... -infidel

Good point, it would not work with hundreds of ships, but it wouldn't have to be hundreds of ships. Again, we're going for that entire realism debate. MOO2 tried to restrict the number of ships one had.... not a brilliant idea, but necessary. Personally speaking, later in game it was rather difficult to battle it out with 50 or so ships on each side, but I'm sure that could be addressed.

Taskforces are nice too, they were meant to do that, would be especially nice to do that with the little ships. Later in the game you probably won't need to use a scout ship individually... a waste. In any case, I think the combat could have been done turn based. There were no technical problems stopping it. Look at it this way, in real time it is more difficult to give orders if you have a hundred ships on screen (that's why they have task forces). Whatever concept they use in real time, I'm sure it could be adapted to turn based game and then given some extra options.

They wanted a multiplayer game too, which is all nice, but - for what I can only call lack of imagination - the developers felt real time combat is the only way to resolve battles quickly enough for multiplayer games. I personally think that is not the case. Just off the top of my head, MOO2 would have been a lot nicer if you could observe other player's battles when you were done with yours. Plus, really, what are they saying now? battles are quick enough so that it won't really disrupt the game? Well what does that mean... that there's not much to them? Also, what about a hybrid real time/tb system where you issue orders and then you click the "turn" button and both sides try to resolve those orders in a quick round of real time battle... then repeat. Doesn't sound awfully bad to me... in any case, it's just wishing at this point.

I suppose you are right about the resolution, not that it would make the game look much better, it's quite bland from the screenshots I've seen. Unfortunately, it is difficult to have 2D interfaces scale across resolutions, so they need to select one (usually). 1024x would probably have worked just fine, and perhaps it would have made things look a bit neater on screen. It's a cosmetic issue mostly, belive me, if the game is good the resolution will be easily forgiven.

Sincerely,
XentWraith

	24-02-2003 01:19									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Infidel Except for the fact that the IFP version of the game was even MORE unplayable than the current version (according to Chick) is...

I think so-called unplayability wasn“t his point. If it was just a bad interface or something, I can live with that.

But he is stating that the game doesn“t really allow me any more to be in *full* control of even a part of it. In the earlier versions, I hear, if you spent IFPs in one area, you *could* micro-manage that area, to your heart“s content. And your leaders would certainly not over-ride your decisions there, I presume.

Or, if they did, they could be hanged, drawn and quartered, which is a consolation.

	24-02-2003 01:27									#131
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quote: Originally posted by leiavoia Keeping your empire afloat is the AI's job (if you let it). Winning the game is yours.

Keeping the empire afloat should be the hard thing. If the ai does that for you, winning will be the easy thing (except if opponents cheat like hell).

This is why the reviewer thought the game is no challenge at all.

	24-02-2003 01:28									#132
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quote: Originally posted by leiavoia You guys are getting really carried away here: the AI does NOT run the game for you - all it does it manage your colonies, and when you've got 6 dozen of them, i say "fine - manage away". You can turn the AI off if you are going to have a fit with it, but you won't. You'll kiss it's feet and shower it with gifts of appreciation for not turning MOO3 into a micromanagement hell. It isn't stupid and does a decent job of running the place. Also, if all you do is click the next turn button, you will certainly lose. Much of the game needs your attention as it should: spying, diplomacy, anything military related, dev plans, ship building and fleet/TF contruction. etc. The AI steps in where it should: colonizing (if you specifically tell it it may), colony maintenance (if you let it), ship combat (if you let it), ground combat (if you let it), and technology and research (if you let it). see the point? Keeping your empire afloat is the AI's job (if you let it). Winning the game is yours.

ehh, i guess we will all have to just wait and see whether or not having 6 dozen colonies equals fun in the first place.

I know alot of people want a "deep" strategy game, but having so many colonies/cities to manage, to the point where you "need" the computer to step in, questions whether a game should be that huge in the first place...

I think the civ games kept things fairly easy enough to manage without "having" to resort to the ai to manage things. Civ had governors of course, but you could due without 'em. In moo3, it seems absolutely necessary to use "governers". Bad move i think.

And..keeping your empire afloat was always the players' job in other games i believe...you kinda made CT's point...The game seems too complex to enjoy unless you DO engage the viceroys, which removes the whole reason for playin' an empire building game in the first place..

I will wait to see what you guys have to say after buying and playing!

	24-02-2003 01:31									#133
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep Maybe 10-15 cities/star systems 'could' represent a large empire in an intellegent TBS design. OTOH, in the original Civ and in the original MoO - IMO both very 'intelligently' designed - 10-15 cities/star systems did NOT represent large empires on anything but the smallest world/galaxy size.

I usually played them on small worlds.

The ideal game is one where you have a quite limited number of options, but have to ponder each of them very long (because it doesn“t forgive mistakes).

	24-02-2003 01:39									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune I usually played them on small worlds. The ideal game is one where you have a quite limited number of options, but have to ponder each of them very long (because it doesn“t forgive mistakes).

I think you'd find significant opposition to this POV. Most gamers I know ADORE options - the more, the better...

It's something I find very appealing when looking at this title. Options out the wazoo...

-infidel

	24-02-2003 01:43									#135
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

So CT: the best game for you would be one with a yes/no button for the question 'do I have an odd number of fingers up behind my back'? Only one option, and presumably you lose if you choose wrong - that's pretty unforgiving...

Yes, I know your statement was a generalization and I took it to an extreme. Spare me that. I think that is a valid opinion - having little choices but much overall strategy - and a good game. But it's not the only option for a good game, nor is it the best option for any individual person.

	24-02-2003 01:52									#136
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quote: Originally posted by vee4473 Civ had governors of course, but you could due without 'em.

A) You HAD to do without them because they were dumb. (Most reviewers and beta-testers seem to agree that this is not the case with Moo3's development-plan-guided viceroys).

B) Because you had to do without governors in Civ3 (and because adding items to multiple build-queues with a single command wasn't possible, unlike in CtP2), the typical Civ endgame wasn't fun, at least not for me.

	24-02-2003 01:58									#137
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Haven't this subject been discussed to death by now?
Or am I just getting old and indifferent and have forgotten what it's like to really feel strongly about just about everything?

To me Arnelos' advise to CT was right on the money (not that he's the first to come up with that one) and I'll chill for now and make sure to get some fresh air and stock up on supplies before MOO-day.
And sorta like the allied soldiers just before D-day, I anticipate the day with mixed fellings of fear and exitement (allright, I know, that's taking it over the top, forgive me )

edit: typo

	24-02-2003 02:00									#138
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep A) You HAD to do without them because they were dumb. (Most reviewers and beta-testers seem to agree that this is not the case with Moo3's development-guided viceroys). B) Because you had to do without governors in Civ3 (and because adding items to multiple build-queues with a single command wasn't possible, unlike in CtP2), the typical Civ endgame wasn't fun, at least not for me.

The dumbness of the governers isn't the issue.

In civ, you could effectively enjoy the game and manage your cities without the governers...if you didn't like what they were doing.


It seems that in moo3, and from leiavoia's comments, that you have no choice but to engage the "governers" whether you agree with their decisions or not....or else face a micromanagement hellfire.

civ kept the game enjoyable without governers if you didn't like them, moo3 seems to make them mandatory whether you like 'em or not.

that was my only point.

	24-02-2003 02:25									#139
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quote: Originally posted by vee4473 civ kept the game enjoyable without governers if you didn't like them, moo3 seems to make them mandatory whether you like 'em or not.

In the end, 'mandatory' use of governors may be dependend on the scale of the world/galaxy. Civ3's 'standard' world size - with room for about 100 cities - did not keep the endgame enjoyable for me. I'm fairly sure that a) this 'paralysing endgame' syndrome is a common criticism of nearly all TBS games (with the original MoO as a possible exception) and b) the majority of fans nevertheless wants BIGGER worlds, more items to build etc. So MoO3's design take - viceroys that handle 'mundane' tasks in a competent manner while the player concentrates on the 'big picture' - may be the best innovation that the TBS genre has seen in a long time.

	24-02-2003 02:39									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune I looked at the same screenies, and it seems to have been simplified. Like the reviewer says.

The only simplification I see is that everything is in one list, instead of separate lists for weapons and specials. Doesn't seem like much of a simplification for me. Plus, you didn't used to have to pick what the "role" of a ship was.

	24-02-2003 02:40									#141
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i will wait to see if your theory is true lockstep. (that moo3's take on the potential endgame micro hell is successful)

let's just hope that their take doesn't cripple the player in the early game as well.

or make the players' decisions secondary to an AI controlled empire.

I want the game to be great. Just posting my opinions, and why I think CT has a point here.

yay yay yay

huh?

	24-02-2003 02:43									#142
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quote: Originally posted by XentWraith It was my impression that QS wanted to make MOO accessible to more people. For that reason, apparently, certain elements were added to the game... let's recall for a second what a few of those items are: - Real time combat (yuppee in 3D) - AIs that handle everything - 3D star map (why?)

Real-time combat and good AIs are things that address the major weaknesses of MoO2: Combat bogs as it scales up, and end-game micromanagement is a bore. Claiming that they're "to make MOO accessible to more people" unfairly omits the real value they offer to gameplay.

	24-02-2003 02:48									#143
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oh, and i'm waiting for gamespot's review!!!

can't wait! that'll be my yardstick.

heh.

kidding, but I am interested in their review. I haven't agreed with all their reviews, but i'm curious...if it ever appears.

	24-02-2003 02:57									#144
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Can anybody find in Chick's review the part where he specifically says that he won a "two games" or any games at all just from hitting the "end turn" button?

	24-02-2003 03:08									#145
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It seems like some of you are arguing just for the sake of argument. If you don't want to use the governors, you DON'T HAVE TO! You are not "forced" to use them in ANY WAY. You can step in whenever you want to and micromanage to your heart's content, as little or as much as you want. The average gamer, however (even the average hard-core strategy gamer) won't want to spend two hours checking every single production queue of every single planet, every turn. If you for some reason want to do this, you can. I really don't know how people could be missing this, it's been a feature right since IFPs were taken out (BTW: If IFPs had been left in, all your fears would have come true).

Tom Chick's problem is he failed to understand:

1. How to turn off the AI ("forced to use it")
2. How to customize the AI and give it direction

In other words, he didn't bother to learn how to play the game and couldn't see past the graphics (not up to Homeworld standards, I guess) and poor documentation (this is less excusable...).

	24-02-2003 03:16									#146
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WHAT game have you played? My FINAL VERSION viceroys have NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER changed my build queue nor my DEA build list on stuff *I* have ordered. What drugs are you on?

Plus, development plans are a HUGE PART OF THE GAME!

Did Tom ever TRY to use development plans? That's where you assign tasks to the AI depending on your taste.

Here is a screenshot:

http://www.ugo.com/channels/games/f...ges/moo3_12.jpg

This is a HUGE PART OF THE GAME.

I love it when people who have never played the game try to tell me how the game plays. LOL

	24-02-2003 03:19									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Spectrex It seems like some of you are arguing just for the sake of argument. If you don't want to use the governors, you DON'T HAVE TO! You are not "forced" to use them in ANY WAY. You can step in whenever you want to and micromanage to your heart's content, as little or as much as you want. The average gamer, however (even the average hard-core strategy gamer) won't want to spend two hours checking every single production queue of every single planet, every turn. If you for some reason want to do this, you can. I really don't know how people could be missing this, it's been a feature right since IFPs were taken out (BTW: If IFPs had been left in, all your fears would have come true). Tom Chick's problem is he failed to understand: 1. How to turn off the AI ("forced to use it") 2. How to customize the AI and give it direction In other words, he didn't bother to learn how to play the game and couldn't see past the graphics (not up to Homeworld standards, I guess) and poor documentation (this is less excusable...).

i "failed" to recognize this when i read Tom's review and he said that turning the ai off did not change much. When he said that the ai is the driving force in the game. The player is secondary.

Maybe i am a victim of his lies as some of you have stated. But he said that , in his experience with the game, you cannot turn the the ai off to much effect.

I'm reacting to Tom's review.

We shall see.

	24-02-2003 03:21									#148
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quote: Originally posted by JonahFalcon WHAT game have you played? My FINAL VERSION viceroys have NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER changed my build queue nor my DEA build list. What drugs are you on?

once again, Tom Chick says otherwise.

no one can know who's giving an honest description.

i'm done here.

i await the forum poster's reviews.

	24-02-2003 03:23									#149
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Again:

http://www.ugo.com/channels/games/f...ges/moo3_12.jpg

The game is not driven by AI. You drive and influence the AI. However, when you MAKE A BUILD QUEUE or MAKE A DEA BUILD ORDER, the AI will NEVER countermand you.

Plus, there are a ton of buttons to press. You can tell the AI to save money, spend it, or a median of both.

The fact is, this is a EMPIRE BUILDING GAME. You DON'T have the ability to tell 200 planets under your power what to do, unless you savor severe micromanagement.

The concept is too advanced for Tom. heh

	24-02-2003 03:25									#150
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I do savor micromanagement.

But all I want to know Jonah: do you like the game? Is it fun? Is it great?