12-04-2001 09:10									#1
	"Fairness of AI in MP Games... Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

In several (most)MP games I am part of, it seems to me that the implication of AI does not contribute to create a "fair-fight" situation amongst human players...

Some examples, you start on a rotten portion of the map, bordered by the Dunes and tons of fungus AND your neighbor is the AI Believers centered on the jungle and all they want is kick your butts... How can you turn this kind of situation into a fair-fight and interresting game with the other human players ? This kind of situation seem to be present in almost all my MP games, fortunately not always to my detriment...

Another recent example is that in a two-human game, I get two surprise attacks from both the Spartans (treaty) and the Believers (truce), plus the program gives one of my bases to the Pirates (treaty) without a drone riot situation... ALL OF THIS IN THE SAME TURN... and believe me, it is not because I was grossly ahead in any way.

It seems to me that this kind of situation is greatly detrimental to the enjoyment of this game and prevent players from behing able to benchmark themselves vis a vis their fellow players.

What do you think ? Do you see the same kind of situation ? Do you know a way to avoid it ?

After all, it's not like if you could simply scrap a game and start a new one, when it takes months to get to a decently advanced point...

(reading myself back, should I consult with a psychologist ? quit gaming ? the thing is I really like this bloody game...)

	12-04-2001 09:39									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Being next to the AI is a bonus, since it cannot compare to a human opponet in warfare.

	12-04-2001 09:49									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Jacques,

I guess I would take a more philosophical view of MP. Fate determines where you are and who your neighbors are. Sometimes winning is surviving as long as you can and maybe survivng longer than you expected. When the Nazis stormed across Europe, England seemed destined to fall. The British never gave up under the relentless fire bombing. Likewise, many citizens of third world countries, continually abused by the "Great Powers", persevere and are proud yet mindful of where they stand in the World. Being a smaller, weaker, faction may not be satisfying but you can still be a proud nation. I'm sure the French were not too pleased when their Marginol line turned out to be a costly and ineffective defense. If you hold out, maybe the other human player will come in and help you vanquish the AI invaders.

Right, the AI can be annoying but is no match for the cunning of another human. I'd rather have an AI faction (even Miriam or Marr) on my continent over another human any day.

------------------
Brother Locus of the Peacekeepers
[This message has been edited by Locus (edited April 11, 2001).]

	11-04-2001 22:13									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I am in a game right now where I really thought for a while that the AI Hive would topple me, which is more than a little embarrasing, I'm sure you'll agree. However, I was able to pull through the war (once I got D:AP). I am now in a much stronger position (having conquered all his bases in the jungle) than I would have been had he not been there. So from a purely gameplaying perspective, it is a double-edged sword - the AI can be a formidable opponent, given the right circumstances, but in this circumstance, the rewards are far greater for their destruction.

	11-04-2001 23:37									#5
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It does create an unbalancing effect in MP. But it does make things more interesting. If you play a lot of games with the same person it all comes out in the wash. You will get a benefit some games he will in other games.

	12-04-2001 00:26									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Thanks for the replies. I understand the point WRT AI vs human opponent and agree that it would be even worse if the Believer neighbor in the jungle right beside you in the dunes would be human, but this is exactly the point of my question... sometimes, the software does not seem to treat human players with even the shadow of fairness, which in my view sometimes scraps the game right from the beginning.

Now regarding ganging up of AI, it happens to you all the time in single player games as soon as you outpower the AI factions, but have you seen it occuring in a MP game even when the victim is not overly powerfull ?

	12-04-2001 00:53									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Oh, so you are talking about fairness. Definitely, in single player games the AI cheats like nobody's business. I think that's how the game designers make up for the poor AI. For example, I think most players are aware that the AI doesn't have air unit restrictions of returning to base like we do. I guess it is an attempt to make the game challenging which it does, but it is f*#@ing annoying as hell to see the AI cheat like that. I know how you feel. I have found myself yelling at my PC "B*llsh#t! many times. It makes revenge ever so sweet, though. Tonight, Yang is gonna suffer!

------------------
Brother Locus of the Peacekeepers

	12-04-2001 07:55									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

As a rule of thumb if I start next to a hostile neighbor (or perhaps just any neighbor) I alter my research toward more militant goals.

	12-04-2001 12:50									#10
	Tired of ads?

Jacques,

I wonder whether your opponent has been whipping your butt in the diplomacy / intelligence war unbeknownst to you? That might explain why your ally / peace partners suddenly came after you (bribed?), and perhaps why your base ended up in Sven's loving grasp. Perhaps your opponent mind controlled it and gave it to Sven in the same turn. There is a bug in MP which means that Probe actions can be hidden from the view of the human victim to an extent (Multi-Players correct me if I am wrong), and I believe there is a rule used that certain human probe are supposed to be announced in order to allow a declaration of vendetta by the human player rather than a decision by the AI proxy.

	13-04-2001 09:14									#12
	Put an end to popups!

Sneaky diplomatic actions are always a possibility, but I am almost certain that the transfer of my base to the Pirates was a result of the random events generated by the game itself, as it was announced in a similar manner as the usual random events.

The worst thing is that since the Pirates are one of my two remaining treaty partners, I don't want to take the base back...

My status on the power chart for this specific game is presently taking a nosedive, so hopefully my badluck will pause for a little while... Otherwise, without minimizing the truly great skills of my opponent, those type of random events will have (in my opinion) way too much influence on the outcome of the game.

Anyway thanks to all of those who have shared their point of view and experience.


Jacques.