23-02-2003 01:53									#31
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quote: Originally posted by JCG That's one way of looking at it, but the U.S. could also say that threats, aggressions, instability and especially drug trading are enough for them to get involved, I suppose.

The only justification that is any good at all is the drug trade and they US should do more at home to fight the drug war. It's poor justification. It's pretty obvious that the US is getting involved because they prefer the current government to the rebels.

	23-02-2003 01:56									#32
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Well if it comes down to it, and you disagree with that assessment, then get them to change policy both on that and the drug war, you're free to try.

	23-02-2003 01:57									#33
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quote: Originally posted by JCG So firing at unarmed prisoners after a plane goes down is not an execution? One even had a shot in the back of the head (don't know if they mention it in this particular article).

One was a sergeant in the Columbian army, and the rest were probably armed CIA. No this article did not mention that one was shot in the back of the head, but that really doesn't prove anything. Anyway, just because someone executed someone the whole group can not be held guilty, just the one guy or who gave the order.

	23-02-2003 02:00									#34
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quote: Originally posted by JCG Well if it comes down to it, and you disagree with that assessment, then get them to change policy both on that and the drug war, you're free to try.

This isn't PI. FARC has strong support in Columbia. Bush is stupid for continuing his actions. I won't be able to change the policy. Too bad.

	23-02-2003 02:19									#35
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I'm sorry but their having strong support is a big fat lie. Most Colombians just want violence to end, and only cooperate with the guerrillas or the paramilitaries out of fear and respect for their own lives. There is no massive support behind any of them.

And if there was a Colombian soldier the FARC still should have respected his life and taken him prisoner, just like the vice versa is so often expected and demanded....Sounds fair to me.

	23-02-2003 02:34									#36
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Ridiculous. Of course they want the war to end. Everybody does. But many of them support the FARC.

	23-02-2003 02:40									#37
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I don't suppose there are any American troops included to reign in Colombia's military and paramilitary forces.

Uribe's "Democratic Security" docitrines has not only been effectively an attempt to legimitimize the AUC and gov't abuses, it has been stealing the liberties of all Colombians, not just the FARC.

First the MILF, now the FARC. "War on terrorism," my arse.

	23-02-2003 02:45									#38
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It's pretty obvious that the US is getting involved because they prefer the current government to the rebels.

The current government was elected with a solid majority on the platform of trying to end the civil war. We have had good experiences with supporting governments in these circumstances. I'm reminded of the destruction of the Shining Path (whatever you think about Fujimori's post-Shining Path behavior).

Also, I think we should take the administration at face value on this. The US will give help anywhere that it is needed and wanted in order to curtail the threat of global terrorism.

	23-02-2003 02:58									#39
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Duncan, have you ever been down there? Do so and then tell me if you still think a majority supports the FARC.

Uribe isn't going to change much in this war, obviously. But at least he's trying to weaken the FARC and increase security, even if both objectives are relative.

Are some liberties going to suffer (like if they weren't already affected anyways)? Obviously. It's the old Freedom vs. Security issue, and Uribe prefers the later, and that's why he was elected.

He doesn't want to legitimize the AUC, but to create a government controlled alternative to them, similar to what happened in Peru, like DanS mentioned.

The problem with the paramilitaries is that, despite what Commies always think, their origin is three-fold (!), thus they have not been a government "appendage" since many years ago, and they never completely were one.

It's a very complex situation. The AUC doesn't look like it will simply disolve at Uribe's whim..

Still, again I must say that peace talks will be the ONLY solution (and they will have to include all sides at the same time), but both factions are very radicalized at the moment....

	23-02-2003 03:55									#40
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quote: Also, I think we should take the administration at face value on this.

Why?

You're seriously claiming that they've earned it? Not that Clinton was better.

quote: The US will give help anywhere that it is needed and wanted in order to curtail the threat of global terrorism.

The US will give help anywhere that it is needed and wanted against terrorists we don't like. This has squat to do with "the threat of global terrorism."

	23-02-2003 04:10									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Also, I think we should take the administration at face value on this. The US will give help anywhere that it is needed and wanted in order to curtail the threat of global terrorism.

It's becoming obvious that this is not just about terrorism anymore. Bush is using this card to start the old style US Imperialism again. And he is sacrificing the battle against Al Qaeda to do it, because this is very easy to see through.

	23-02-2003 05:09									#42
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http://www.terrorismanswers.com/policy/guerrilla.html

Here's a link people might be interested in if they are wondering if FARC are freedom fighters or terrorists. They have commited terrorist acts, but shouldn't be defined by those acts since they have not commited many terrorist acts and the attacks were not bad in comparison.

	23-02-2003 05:21									#43
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This thread is just begging for some of Fez's brilliance!

	23-02-2003 06:07									#44
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I'm going to regret this but....

DuncanK, I'm sorry but I guess you really don't know anything about Colombia, unfortunately.

That page is just a quick half-arsed summary, but they aren't even up to date nor do they go into events in any reasonable depth.

It should probably be called "terrorism 101 for dummies and ignoramuses who lack free time to do serious research"....And yet for you, it apparently contains absolute truth.

I could write up a huge list just outlining many recent FARC terrorist acts in the past few years, months and weeks and other reasons that categorically show them NOT to be just romantic "freedom fighters" anymore, heck even links to pertinent sources, but I don't think it would matter to hard-headed people like you, so I shouldn't bother...

And since none of that is on your perfect website, it's worthless to even try.

As for "not bad", "not many"....? Who defines "not bad" and "not many"? You? Who don't even know half of it?Don't make me laugh and cry.

Certainly NOT people who lack first hand experience and have no idea regarding what they speak of, outside of internet digest texts. Those are only opinions, and highly uninformed ones at that.

This would be so much simpler if I didn't care at all, but darn it.....

	23-02-2003 06:29									#45
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I'm going to regret this but

Why regret it? Give 'em hell!

From Columbia? Have relatives there?

Bush is using this card to start the old style US Imperialism again. And he is sacrificing the battle against Al Qaeda to do it, because this is very easy to see through.

Bollocks.

	23-02-2003 06:30									#46
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That is a US government source. I just put it there for people to reference. I wasn't using it to make a point. If you have a better one, hopefully not biased, then provide it instead of just getting exited. Getting excited doesn't do anything.

btw, the US has supported terrorism in the past too in civil wars. We can't just start calling leftist groups in Latin America terrorists when we have a history of supporting rightwing groups who have also commited acts of terrorism.

edit: Oops, I thought it was a government site. It's actually a bipartisan think tanks website

Last edited by DuncanK on 23-02-2003 at 06:38

	23-02-2003 06:35									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I hope that everyone agrees that these are CIA operatives, right?

They are the agency normal handling that sort of surveilance mission when there is not a combat force deployed, but sometimes they will be done by military personel, Atmey ir Air Force.

	23-02-2003 06:41									#48
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FARC has been on the USA list of terror forces to exterpate for some time, the only limitation thus far on USA forces doing so is how much USA involment the Columbian goverment is going to allow.

FARC first of second financial source has been kidnap for ransom.

Last edited by Lefty Scaevola on 23-02-2003 at 06:47

	23-02-2003 06:52									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola FARC has been on the USA list of terror forces to exterpate for some time, the only limitation thus far on USA forces doing so is how much USA involment the Columbian goverment is going to allow.

Despite the constant lying about narco-terrorists, I think most Americans would be extremely unhappy about the US getting more involved in fighting the FARC and ELN. Too much like Vietnam for comfort.

	23-02-2003 06:54									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Also, I think we should take the administration at face value on this. The US will give help anywhere that it is needed and wanted in order to curtail the threat of global terrorism.

Sorry DanS. The US does nothing about the rightwing terrorists in Columbia either does the Columbian government who is supported by the US.

	23-02-2003 07:15									#51
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Also, I think we should take the administration at face value on this.

We should never take the US government at face value. It lies to us whenever it feels its necessary. The US government is not a credible source.

	23-02-2003 07:43									#52
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Besides the fact that the US is ideologically opposed to FARC, there is also oil there that the US companies would like to get to. We could see much more US involvement in Columbia if Bush decides that we need more oil coming from Latin America.

	23-02-2003 08:05									#53
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Actually, it's just a pipline.

	23-02-2003 08:25									#54
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Colombian potential oil reserves are known to have been overestimated over the years, and in any case they are lower than Venezuela's, for that matter.

Further DuncanK, notice how calling the AUC terrorists comes so naturally to you, but it's incredibly hard to get you to call the FARC terrorists. It's not only the U.S. government that can use different standards, you know...

And saying the Colombian government does "nothing" against the paramilitaries is not exact. They may do much less, after all the AUC is not trying to bring it down and they are smaller than the guerrillas, but they do kill, arrest and prosecute some of them when there's a chance.

Even HRW, of all people, admits that the government *is* going after more paramilitaries now than it did in earlier years, when they were much closer associates. Of course there are still officers within the military that consciously cooperate with the AUC, but then again corruption is a common thing among all sides, including the FARC.

(And yes, I've got family living there, in case anyone else is wondering).

	23-02-2003 08:37									#55
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Oh, right Che. They want to protect the current flow or make more flow.

	23-02-2003 08:44									#56
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JCG,

From what I have read the AUC executes more civilians than the left wing groups. They are more easily defined as terrorists because they are not fighting for freedom. They just terrorize. On the other hand the left wing groups (and I've already admitted that they have committed acts of terror) have committed less acts of terror and are infact fighting for freedom.

The AUC is just acting in the Columbian and US governments interest. Of course the governments will do nothing to oppose them, or God forbid, put them on the list of terrorist organizations.

	23-02-2003 08:54									#57
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Of course the governments will do nothing to oppose them, or God forbid, put them on the list of terrorist organizations.

Own goal.

http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/auc/auc-list.htm

	23-02-2003 08:56									#58
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They already are on the list and the U.S. has requested that Castano be extradited, more for drugs than for anything else.

So if I kill 100 or 200, threaten some leftists, and I'm heavily involved in narcotics that makes me a terrorist. Okay, fine.

But if I kill let's say 40 or 50, use indiscriminate mortar attacks that affect the civilian population and their homes, threaten the life of more than 200 elected local mayors, use car bombs that kill more bystanders than intended "legitimate" targets, use bombs against public transportation buses, blow up pipelines causing environmental damage, kidnap 3 brothers and use them as unwilling kamikazes with car bombs, blow up electricy towers and infrastructure that affect the poorest regions of the country more than anyone else, kidnap an independent presidential candidate, threaten indigenous populations, use land-mines that may affect anyone who uses certain roads, protect coca and drug crops and laboratories, also deal with drug traders, and conform urban gangs of mobster-like militias it's all fine and dandy because I'm supposedly fighting for freedom?

I didn't know that, until now.

Last edited by JCG on 23-02-2003 at 09:11

	23-02-2003 11:36									#59
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JCG,

Revolution is not a dinner party. Mao said that. I agree they go over the line. The point is that the US has a bias here, and the only reason they are involved here is because the hate communism and they want to protect the oil. It's got nothing to do with terrorism and you know it.