22-02-2003 23:41									#1
	1886 Preliminary City-Planner Suggestions Suffering from ads?

Understanding that the other Ministers will need some changes in these for their special reasons, here is my initial suggestions for changes in Worker positions and city production:

The summary is:

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Last edited by cavebear on 22-02-2003 at 23:54

	22-02-2003 23:42									#2
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City Production 1:

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	22-02-2003 23:42									#3
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City Production 2:

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	22-02-2003 23:44									#4
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Worker Adjustments 1:

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	22-02-2003 23:45									#5
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Worker Adjustments 2:

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	22-02-2003 23:48									#6
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I anticipate changes for Ministers or Trade and War requirements. These are starting points for discussion.

And I have been more actively using a reading of the individual happiness screen do good effect, I think. Getting a few more cities into WLTPD while maintaining production and trade has been a goal this time.

	23-02-2003 05:49									#7
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couple of thoughts again

Amazon Island: would benefit much more from an aquaduct rather than a bank next (it's celebrating and size 8)
Avila: if has a ship at sea, it's not going to celebrate. Also, again, it can celebrate right now with 3 specialists (none have to be entertainers either)
Chii: is the only city producing Silver - rush a freight to take the next transport that delivers gold home
Darkness Fort: Harbor so we can get more trade and stop the food shortage and grow.
High Tower: one of 2 cities producing spice - maybe a freight after the marketplace (which will keep it celebrating)
Hydeyville: I'd like to know if there is a whale or a fish in that dark sea space (pattern is hard to see)
Malaga: move forest worker to ocean - it will celebrate and grow to 12, producing need for sewer system
Nepal: I'd really like to see some roads or a harbor
Obladi: Freight? Its one of 2 cities producing wool, colosseum won't allow to celebrate right now without removing workers
Port Easton: one of only 2 cities producing Coal right now
Seville: Stock exchange won't induce WL (we already have max luxuries affecting the city populace), but a colosseum would, as would removing 1 worker - somebody get a road on that space that the AI keeps wanting to use!
St Praski: colosseum will allow celebration only if cruiser stays in port
Whale Island: city really needs an aquaduct - its celebrating but stuck at size 8

	23-02-2003 05:53									#8
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SCG has some suggestions. Imagine my surprise.

Hey, I'm cool on it, he normally has good ones. That's why I post these things.

	23-02-2003 07:17									#9
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quote: Originally posted by SCG couple of thoughts again Amazon Island: would benefit much more from an aquaduct rather than a bank next (it's celebrating and size 8)[QUOTE] Correct. Amazon Island will continue to celebrate with an Aqueduct. [QUOTE]Avila: if has a ship at sea, it's not going to celebrate. Also, again, it can celebrate right now with 3 specialists (none have to be entertainers either)

Wrong. Avila clearly does not have a ship at sea. The unhappiness is generic. Read the city happiness chart! A Colosseum will solve that.

quote: Chii: is the only city producing Silver - rush a freight to take the next transport that delivers gold home

Every city needs a 2nd defending unit. Trade comes afterwards.

quote: Darkness Fort: Harbor so we can get more trade and stop the food shortage and grow.

Harbor isn't a bad idea. It would be easier to have the onsite engineer improve the gold grass though.

quote: High Tower: one of 2 cities producing spice - maybe a freight after the marketplace (which will keep it celebrating)

With 6 food and plenty of trade created by the new Workers, it's going to be celebrating for a while regardless. Freight will be part of the future queue to maintain that.

quote: Hydeyville: I'd like to know if there is a whale or a fish in that dark sea space (pattern is hard to see)

Duh, that's what I said. At 108, 102!

quote: Malaga: move forest worker to ocean - it will celebrate and grow to 12, producing need for sewer system

I have it building a Sewer System. A Bank will increase Tax and Lux. We'd have to rush the Sewer System to keep the celebration going. I don't think that is the best use of our Rush gold, but I'll "suggest" it.

quote: Nepal: I'd really like to see some roads or a harbor

I'm leaving the actions in that area to the Minister of War to determine, even though I offerred a suggestion for discussion purposes..

quote: Obladi: Freight? Its one of 2 cities producing wool, colosseum won't allow to celebrate right now without removing workers

A Colosseum in Obladi will correct the one unhappy citizen and prevent the next 3. Is there something odd about Wool? Besides, it is not producing Wool.

quote: Port Easton: one of only 2 cities producing Coal right now

And your point is? The city has no land defenders at the moment and it needs 2. Defense wins in this case.

quote: Seville: Stock exchange won't induce WL (we already have max luxuries affecting the city populace), but a colosseum would, as would removing 1 worker - somebody get a road on that space that the AI keeps wanting to use!

I would have said Colosseum, but I thought I would get trashed for too many of them. (Can't win) We need to change only one unhappy worker to a content one. I agree on this. I think a Stock Exchange would work, too, though. I'll change it to Colosseum.

quote: St Praski: colosseum will allow celebration only if cruiser stays in port

Well, Yes. I expected it was for defensive purposes. (attack and return) The longer it stays in port, the more the city will celebrate.

quote: Whale Island: city really needs an aquaduct - its celebrating but stuck at size 8

Good call! Aqueduct it is.

	23-02-2003 08:33									#10
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear Wrong. Avila clearly does not have a ship at sea. The unhappiness is generic. Read the city happiness chart! A Colosseum will solve that.

I know it doesn't now, but one will be completed this turn. As i read your plans, you plan to finish it, meaning Pres can move it out, thereby undoing plans for the colosseum.

quote: Every city needs a 2nd defending unit. Trade comes afterwards.

i'm always one to let other larger cities build military for newer smaller ones, hense that suggestion. Assuming we aren't using freight rehoming, then freights fall under the same principles that structures do.

quote: Harbor isn't a bad idea. It would be easier to have the onsite engineer improve the gold grass though.

that works too, just figured the engineers were working on the railroad

quote: With 6 food and plenty of trade created by the new Workers, it's going to be celebrating for a while regardless. Freight will be part of the future queue to maintain that.

i used poor grammar there - i meant the marketplace would keep it celebrating.

quote: I have it building a Sewer System. A Bank will increase Tax and Lux. We'd have to rush the Sewer System to keep the celebration going. I don't think that is the best use of our Rush gold, but I'll "suggest" it.

again, maybe i'm misreading your plans. As i read it, you have the sewer system being changed from the sewer system to a bank. As for rushing, we only need to rush a colosseum, and let the city finish it just as it grows.

quote: I'm leaving the actions in that area to the Minister of War to determine, even though I offerred a suggestion for discussion purposes..

ah, figured roads within the city limits was your jurisdiction. A harbor would allow the increase of trade arrows, and if we use all 3 sea spaces, it should celebrate

quote: A Colosseum in Obladi will correct the one unhappy citizen and prevent the next 3. Is there something odd about Wool? Besides, it is not producing Wool.

my screen says Salt (Spice) Wool. and no, nothing special, other than when there is demand, and only a few suppliers, i like to have the suppliers build things so we have them for delivery rather than not have them at all in a few turns.

quote: And your point is? The city has no land defenders at the moment and it needs 2. Defense wins in this case.

same reasoning as above - have other cities build the military while the city builds what only it can build

quote: I would have said Colosseum, but I thought I would get trashed for too many of them. (Can't win) We need to change only one unhappy worker to a content one. I agree on this. I think a Stock Exchange would work, too, though. I'll change it to Colosseum.

A colosseum should allow the city to grow several times without management. They're high maintainence, but getting 4 more workers without maintenence usually pays for itself (and with some management, it could grow well into the 20s with celebration)

	23-02-2003 08:51									#11
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Reguarding Obladi and colosseum not allowing celebration - I have no idea what i was thinking maybe i was thinking Leon or maybe Valencia with Aegis on its build schedule...

I stand corrected on that one

	23-02-2003 20:46									#12
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As we near the endgame - we may want to ease production of further city improvements. A bank/uni will provide a lot of long term benefits, but we're not faced with a long term anymore. Delivered Freight will get us more cash (to buy spaceship parts) and beakers (getting us to the required techs faster) in the short term, plus we might want Freights for rushbuying spaceship parts.

Build Freight

	24-02-2003 07:05									#13
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quote: Every city needs a 2nd defending unit. Trade comes afterwards.

No. I think we can get away with fewer Riflemen. With enough AEGIS cruisers, we should not have to worry so long as we have some defense in each city.

Trade will increase our science and cash, allowing us to close out the game quicker.

I say keep the trade, and reduce the number of riflemen.

	26-02-2003 05:34									#14
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Avila - The AEGIS should be rehomed if it is to remain at sea. Malaga might be the best place. It will be 3 turns before the Colosseum is built, so there is time before WLTPD could begin.

Chii - The Minister of War says 1 Alpine is sufficient, so I will change it to Freight.

Darkness' Fort - There is a new Engineer in the city. I meant to use him, not the ones building the RR.

High Tower - Oh, "Freight Next" instead of "Library Next". That sounds good.

Malaga - I messed up my explanation because the display I posted was different from a change I had made on my spreadsheet . It looked to me like we would have another unhappy citizen before we celebrated to the 13th citizen, so I didn't think a Sewer System was needed right now and a Bank would have an immediate benefit. But I am moving the Forest Worker to Ocean and suggesting we rush the Sewer System to see if we can get a WLTPD going.

Nepal - Roads in the city radius is my area (to an extent) but here is already an Engineer there improving terrainand I intend for that to continue. I meant I was leaving *new* production to the Minister of War. But I think a Marketplace would be more valuable than a Harbor. There are only 3 Ocean spaces. The Engineer can Irrigate and Road the Gold Grass already being worked to good advantage. I think that will cause a WLTPD celebration sooner than a Harbor. But a Harbor might be the next thing to build unless we need a military unit.

Obladi - Has 5 Happy citizens and 5 not, so it ought to celebrate with the unhappy made content with a Colosseum. Having Harbor, the new citizens should be Happy ones for a while, right? I don't know why I didn't see Wool, though. Maybe I clicked on the wrong city.
In any case, I'm moving the Grass Workers to Ocean to get the extra trade arrows.

Port Easton - I think we need the military unit. The surrounding cities are already a bit bare of defenders (look at Sarragossa and Rabbiton).

I think that leaves us pretty well settled for city-planning activities, so unless someone discovers a need not covered here, I send this to the President tomorrow so he can play when ready.

	26-02-2003 05:36									#15
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 No. I think we can get away with fewer Riflemen. With enough AEGIS cruisers, we should not have to worry so long as we have some defense in each city. Trade will increase our science and cash, allowing us to close out the game quicker. I say keep the trade, and reduce the number of riflemen.

A single military unit in a city makes me nervous, but that's your area.

	26-02-2003 05:45									#16
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Two defenders per city is kind of onerous for a Democracy. Sure, cities on the front line with the Mongols/Celts/Chinese may need more defenders... but cities far from the front could get by with one. Otherwise that's a lot of wasted shields, both production and support.

I recommend Rifle/alpine in each city, supported by 1-3 howitzers/armor per dozen cities, in case the AI makes a cameo appearance in the homeland.

It'd be different if the AI could mount a decent offense.

	26-02-2003 05:45									#17
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looks good - only thought right now is that if we want to have recurring wine and/or gold delivered to demanded cities from CAPITOL each turn, we'd need and extra transport running between Cadiz and Pamplona. Cordoba is the logical place to put it, since we'd have about 3 turns before we needed to have it in place (1st turn build apollo, 2nd turn build wine for leptis parva, 3rd turn build gold for High Tower, be sure to use capitol food freight towards a wonder switched to SS part after gold delivered, repeat)

	26-02-2003 06:00									#18
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The results of the Apollo poll about "rate of building it" were almost evenly divided. For that reason, I'm going to recommend that we let CAPITOL (the clear choice of site) build for 4 turns and then complete it with Freight That way, we will have the world map before the end of the next session, and it will not cost so much in Freight (or Gold, whichever the President decides to use).

	26-02-2003 06:06									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Two defenders per city is kind of onerous for a Democracy. Sure, cities on the front line with the Mongols/Celts/Chinese may need more defenders... but cities far from the front could get by with one. Otherwise that's a lot of wasted shields, both production and support. I recommend Rifle/alpine in each city, supported by 1-3 howitzers/armor per dozen cities, in case the AI makes a cameo appearance in the homeland. It'd be different if the AI could mount a decent offense.

I wouldn't be *very* surprised if an AI visited CAPITOL with a dozen Marines some day. Or a Nuclear Missle when they have the technology. But I'm a pessimist.

If we can safely reduce our city-defenders by trading them in on some newer units or better structures, I'm for it. It might help production in some places.

	26-02-2003 06:17									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Ixnay Wines from CAPITOL arrive in Leptis Parva; revenue: 405

we may have conflicting reports then - there have been quite a few posts for continuing to send freights and no dissenting posts that i've seen, so part of my report is to try to send a Wine freight from CAPITOL to Leptis Parva every turn if possible (and detail how to reset the wine supply with a food freight each turn as posted in a couple of threads)

	26-02-2003 06:50									#21
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i was just playing around with the city advisors on the game to see what they would suggest for a good laugh and, by golly, they suggested something we missed

WhereItsAt town is size 12, and celebrating, but has no sewer system And unless i missed a post, we have University now and Bank next

Other than that, i did get quite a few laughs - Engineers in Whale Island, Airport in Guu for example

	26-02-2003 07:28									#22
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LOL! We sure missed *that*. I've changed the spreadsheet to rush Sewer System! A priority!

	26-02-2003 07:47									#23
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear I wouldn't be *very* surprised if an AI visited CAPITOL with a dozen Marines some day. Or a Nuclear Missle when they have the technology. But I'm a pessimist. If we can safely reduce our city-defenders by trading them in on some newer units or better structures, I'm for it. It might help production in some places.

CAPITOL is another story. In AC games, I usually garrison it with 2 good defenders, a fighter/stealth fighter, and a spy. I've never really needed to have defenders there, but CAPITOL isn't like our other cities. IIRC, massive disorder if we lose the palace, plus if we don't happen to have 1000 g lying around, we lose the spaceship too.

But otherwise... we have ships patrolling, we have flight, to patrol with Fighters. An AI transport shouldn't be able to sneak through. If there's a risk of that, we need to build better patrollers, not 30+ alpines. And losing one city for a turn won't kill us. (Unless it's CAPITOL)

	26-02-2003 07:52									#24
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A few more defenders is not a great cost to CAPITOL. And it would be a real shame to want the defense when it is too late to provide it. I think of CAPITOL as a special case requiring more defense than the typical city.

	26-02-2003 13:18									#25
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For city defence in AC, I usually work on a network type strategy whereby one permanent garrison is in each city, but one city in every 6-12, depending closeness to the front, I usually stockpile up to half a dozen units. Usually a howi or three, a stealth fighter and (rarely) a stealth for closing land bridges/sea lanes. Not really cricket, but sometimes we are talking survival

	27-02-2003 04:55									#26
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Assuming RR between cities (as I think you are as well), I would rather have the defenders spread around to defend against surprise attacks. I think it is easier to defend a city than it is to re-take one. And you usually have to rebuild infrastructure after a city has been conquered twice.