23-02-2003 02:12									#1
	Number of shields added during Cultural Expansion Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I can't explain the following. I'm running a simulation of our situation. In turn 11, the cultural borders of the city expand and the city grows. I expect the order of things to be:

• Food is added to storage
  
• City grows to size 2
  
• Borders expand
  
• Laborer is assigned to work mined tile
  
• Shields (5) are added to the production box
  

=or=

• Food is added to storage
  
• City grows to size 2
  
• Shields (3) are added to the production box
  
• Borders expand
  
• Laborer is assigned to work mined tile
  

However, the actual result is that 4 shields are added to the production box.





These images are taken without manual interference.

The only explanation I can think of is:

• Food is added to storage
  
• City grows to size 2
  
• Laborer is assigned to work bonus grassland tile
  
• Shields (4) are added to the production box
  
• Borders expand
  
• Laborer is re-assigned to work mined tile
  

This would be odd, though - assigning the laborer twice. Anyone care to explain? And what is the effect on Commerce?

	23-02-2003 02:33									#2
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I hope this map isn't the 'actual' game map; because that would be a no-no.

	23-02-2003 02:38									#3
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bigfree1, this is a test scenario I created from screenshots (so there is no "no-no" involved...).

BFM, you never get the extra Commerce when your city size grows or your borders expand (resulting in the assignment of another Laborer). It only works for Shields.


Dominae

	23-02-2003 02:42									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae bigfree1, this is a test scenario I created from screenshots (so there is no "no-no" involved...). Dominae

Good. I'm glad, for two reasons; we didn't cheat and we don't have the most god awful start location of all time!

	23-02-2003 02:59									#5
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ruby_maser on the RP Team noticed a similar phenomenon a while ago and E_T and I started incorporating it into our plans for cities for our team. None of us had ever noticed the extra shields gained by cities until we were watching thw PTW game as closely as we are.

It really played havoc with my anal planning until I started trying to accomodate it (as my previous plans were based upon the assumption that it didn't exist).

I'd recommend that who-ever is doing long-term building plans for our cities in the ISDG please take these into account.

	23-02-2003 03:24									#6
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Actually, it makes sense to calculate production before redistributing laborers to reflect border expansion. Otherwise, players would get very upset at having their carefully balanced plans demolished by an involuntary reallocation of laborers. Keep in mind that cities don't always grow in pop at the same time their radius expands, and the reallocation often involves existing laborers as well as new ones.

Nathan

	23-02-2003 03:32									#7
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BFM, which tile mod are you using here in these screen shots? They are pretty nice looking.

	23-02-2003 03:43									#8
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From my experiance in the SPDG, I've seen the results of a boarder expansion to be where the sheilds are added first and then the WF gets reassigned to a "default" state when the borders expand.

I've not had the two happen at the same time, as far as I can recall, but I would have to take it into account, so that the next turn isn't at default (that is if I have it not at default already). I would say that it's going to be :
Grows
shields
border expand.

E_T

	23-02-2003 03:59									#9
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 BFM, which tile mod are you using here in these screen shots? They are pretty nice looking.

I used some graphics mod to add the smiley face to the luxury.

I also have a graphics mod to depict the goodie huts as Easter Island Statues. Very nice. Found it somewhere in the Files section.

	24-02-2003 11:22									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

See if this sequence gives the right results:

• Food is added to storage
  
• City size is adjusted
  
• Laborer is assigned to tiles
  
• Shield production is calculated
  
• Improvement/Wonder/Unit is completed
  
• Culture is added
  
• Borders are adjusted
  
• Labor is redistributed built unit reduced pop or borders changed
  

	24-02-2003 21:27									#11
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This phenomenon/bug/whatever should only affect the capital. On our team in the PtWDG game, it is not happening to any of our other cities, to my knowledge.

	24-02-2003 21:41									#12
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ruby_master, this is not a bug, it's a peculiarity of the game mechanics. It applies to all cities that expand their borders the same turn they grow, resulting in additional workable tiles. Admittedly, in most games this is a rare occurrence except with the capital.


Dominae

	24-02-2003 21:55									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Where does the trade calculation come into this??

E_T

	24-02-2003 22:01									#14
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Right at the end somewhere, is my guess.

	25-02-2003 01:53									#15
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What trade calculation?

	25-02-2003 03:02									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae ruby_master, this is not a bug, it's a peculiarity of the game mechanics. It applies to all cities that expand their borders the same turn they grow, resulting in additional workable tiles. Admittedly, in most games this is a rare occurrence except with the capital.

My name is ruby_maser, Dominator...

and you can call it whatever you want, but in the current PtWDG, it ain't happening just when the borders expand; its happening every time the city grows.

	25-02-2003 12:20									#17
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser and you can call it whatever you want, but in the current PtWDG, it ain't happening just when the borders expand; its happening every time the city grows.

Not true. For "simple" pop growth, the mechanism is known - the growth happens before the production phase (but after the commerce check), so you do get shields for the new tile worked (unlike commerce & food).

OTOH, if there is cultural expansion involved, things seem to be trickier. From what I noticed in Dominae's sims, it seems that the cultural expansion occurs after the production phase, so your new laborer is autoassigned to work one of the inner ring tiles (even if a better tile is going to be available in the outer ring once the border expands).

That's why we seem to be producing only 4 shields on Turn 11, instead of 5, which would be the case if the mined bonus ex-hut grassland was in the inner city tile ring.

	25-02-2003 20:00									#18
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ruby_maser, sorry about the name screw-up. I hate it when my brain fills the gaps in my incomplete visual field with erroneous information...Sigh.

Just to set the record straight (I hope!):

1. Whenever a city grows in pop, the govern assigns a new laborer to work a tile. The Shields, and only the Shields, from that tile are added to the city's stores. Thus when you're producing 5 Shields per turn and the city grows, you may find 7 Shields in the production box the next turn (assuming it started at 0).

2. This process is a little weird concerning border expansion. You would think that the governor chooses the next tile from the available tiles after the borders expand, but this is not the case. In these circumstances, the governor actually assigns the laborer twice: once after pop growth, and once after border expansion.

3. Incidentally, if the city grows and the borders expand in the same turn, the governor will remove the new laborer and turn it into an Entertainer during the second "sweep". Thus you still get the extra Shields (not Commerce), but the city view will display something different.

All very weird, if you ask me.


Dominae