23-02-2003 03:39									#1
	Humans - are they handicaped or is there something we're missing? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Ok, I've read the strategy guide, I've seen Lore Weaver's stuff, I've looked at things elsewhere.

Is it just me or do the human seem handicaped in terms of # of good picks -vs- # of bad picks. This would seem to have the most impact on our humans when we go to customize the race, as they have less good stats to tone down in order to increase other stats.

For an illustration of this, let's compare the values given for the Humans and the Evon in the strategy guide... both Humanoids and both with Representative government (so the difference can't be one of those):

Evons: 3 superior picks, 5 good picks, 5 average picks, 1 poor pick.

Humans: 2 superior picks, 1 good pick, 8 average picks, 3 poor picks.

Is is just me or is that a HUGE difference in #'s of superior, good, average, and poor picks. This would seem to overly handicap the Human in race customization, nevermind actual gameplay.

There are two possibilities I'm considering for why this would be so:

1. The values given in the strategy guide are highly inaccurate and the designers changed the Humans to make them much better or reduced other races down to the Humans' level after the printing of the strategy guide. Unfortunately, the screenshots I've seen in the Apolyton preview (for one), seem to indicate otherwise.

2. The Humans must have some sort of KILLER special abilities that aren't covered in the strategy guide or in any of the previews and perhaps cannot even be customized that greatly increase their effectiveness in the game and make up for the seemingly enormous handicap they seem to have versus other races. Something such as the Silicoids (who also seem severely handicaped in the race picks) Lithovoric bonuses, but of a completely different form (appropriate to the MoO Humans).

So.... designers, beta testers, anyone in the know.... which is it? or is there yet something else I'm missing?

because the Humans look like a pathetically weak race when you stack up their picks against other races... there's GOT to be something I'm missing here...

	23-02-2003 04:07									#2
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I dont know. But i think some Pics are more important than others.
Humans are not hated by that many Races & receive diplomatic boni thus they are a medicore but balanced reace (IMO)

	23-02-2003 04:12									#3
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Arnelos: part of the racial hardwiring - and species hardwiring - is that some races get picks for cheaper or more expensive than others. From Lore Weaver's guide:

The Humanoid population has a general dislike for oppression and war. This is offset by a boost in research efficiency, senate effectiveness, initial relations, and Casus Belli. Being that they are small, quick, and crafty, they get a little bit of an initiative bonus in ground combat.

The Psilons get a further research bonus on top of the regular humanoids that is offset by a significant population growth penalty.

Do not take this to mean that the Humans and Evon are identical, they are not, there are slight differences in terraforming circles as well as other presently unmentioned bonuses.

Humans cannot select superior toughness, diplomacy picks are 1/2 price, they cannot select poor diplomacy, and they cannot select Antaran Background.

Evon get Economics: Investors for 1/2 price, cannot select superior diplomacy, and they can't select original creativity.

Psilons cannot select superior toughness.

So it's not so much a matter of being handicapped as it is having certain things emphasized over others.

	23-02-2003 04:28									#4
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Only time will tell whether or not the racial abilities are pretty much even or if some abilities are definitely more advantagious than others.

	23-02-2003 06:41									#5
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If the humans get diplomacy picks for 1/2 price, why do the stock humans come with only average diplomacy?

and if the Evon get economics picks for half price, why are the Human Investors and the Evon only monetarists?

It SEEMS that part of the problem in the seeming "handicap" of the humans is that stock humans are potentially handicapped by a selection of non-cheap picks while perhaps the stock Evon (for instance) have more picks in their cheaper categories... thus meaning hte Evon seem to have more points to spend when in reality it's just that the stock Humans have most of their points spent in what are (for them) more expensive categories

If so, doesn't this seem a bit backward? Why not just give the stock races picks in the categories they have discounts in?

I mean... it would make little difference to a human playing the humans, because he can just customize the race. But it means (if I'm reading this correctly) that the AI-controlled humans will be rather weak in comparison to other AI-controlled races because they use the stock races....

This seems rather odd...

	23-02-2003 07:27									#6
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I understand your point, but if they were set at the obvious min/max parts, there'd be very little point in customizing them. For one thing, you'd not get much back in the way of investment. For another, they'd be largely the 'best' they could be.

It also makes the races more distinct between each other, I suspect.

	23-02-2003 07:46									#7
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The Humans are simply the default - all their abilities are the zero value ability. Sometimes good (ie. Cunning), sometimes bad (Pollution).

	23-02-2003 22:24									#8
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This still doesn't add up... I've got a theory...

Bear with me here...

KEY:
RACE - Superior, Good, Average, Poor, Gov, Specs = Cummulative

Evon - 3, 5, 5, 1, Rep = +12
Ithkul - 4, 4, 3, 3, Abs, Ant = +10 (other bonuses, hated by everyone)
Cynoid - 3, 7, 1, 3, Abs = +10 (Cybernetik bonuses?)
Trilarian - 2, 6, 4, 2, Abs = +8 (Itch bonuses?)
Nommo - 4, 3, 3, 4, Abs = +7 (Itch bonuses?)
Meklar - 3, 5, 2, 4, Abs = +7 (Cybernetik bonuses?)
Tachidi - 2, 2, 5, 5, Col = +7 (Insectoid bonuses?)
Psilon - 3, 2, 5, 4, Rep = +6 (extra science, low pop growth)
Klackon - 2, 2, 4, 6, Col = +6 (Insectoid bonsues?)
Sakkra - 3, 3, 4, 4, Abs = +5 (wider terraforming circles)
Raas - 1, 5, 6, 2, Abs = +5 (wider terraforming circles)
Eoladi - 4, 2, 3, 5, Abs = +5 (Etherean bonuses?)
Silicoid - 3, 3, 2, 6, Abs, Tol = +4 (Lithovoric bonuses, low pop growth)
Imsaeis - 4, 2, 2, 6, Abs = +4 (Etherean bonuses?)
Humans - 2, 1, 8, 3, Rep = +4
Grendarl - 1, 5, 4, 4, Abs = +3 (wider terraforming cirlces)

Given the above, if the stuff in the strategy guide is still remotely accurate, the Humans seem rather disadvantaged compared to other races, ESPECIALLY of their own species (just look at the HUGE gulf between the Evon and the Humans). Now, let us refer back to a little note that was Lore Weaver's Humanoid strategy section:

"Do not take this to mean that the Humans and Evon are identical, they are not, there are slight differences in terraforming circles as well as other presently unmentioned bonuses."

Now what exactly could "presently unmentioned bonuses" be?

Given the huge gulf between the Humans and Evons in points towards picks (at least given the strategy guide...), I'm guessing that "presently unmentioned bonuses" likely refers to something being kept under wraps because it's probably related to the backstory. Recall that in the MoO universe (if the old version of the backstory posted several months ago is still accurate), the Humans ruled the universe TWICE before their defeat by the Antarans. In a game where the designers seem to have written such a "paragon of animals" role in for our beloved Humans, I highly doubt they would leave the Humans so handicaped as appears above. Given the role they seem to play in the backstory and the hint above at "presently unmentioned bonuses" and that most things kept under wraps to this point are backstory-related (such as the Ithkul), it's not terribly far-fetched to imagine the Humans probably enjoy some type of backstory-related bonus.

If not, the Humans look amazingly pathetic compared to the other races. No one will want to play them except for sentimental value.

So I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm betting there's more to those MoO3 Humans than the designers have thusfar lead us to believe.

I just hope that if there IS anything like this, the game manual gives us at least SOME indication of its existence so we don't go on thinking the Humans are worthless to play when in reality there's some hidden bonus we're not being told about

	23-02-2003 22:30									#9
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(cough)

For one, you can CUSTOMIZE ANY RACE.

For another, no matter what you do, no matter how you customize a race, you'll never change the cassus belli (racial reaction to other races.)

If you play the game, you'll notice that the humans are simply the default in every category. And by the way, I've won handily a few times using the humans with their base ability (with a Parliamentary Government.)

	24-02-2003 00:25									#10
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I don't doubt that the game can be won with the Humans. What I doubt is that we've been told all of the advantages that the Humans have. Better Casus Belli levels would probably explain the difference, if that's the case. Having good Casus Belli levels with a large number of races compared to the other Humanoids (who already do get good Casus Belli levels with most other races) could be good, though perhaps not to the level of the Silicoid's Lithorovic advantages (though they do get the pop growth penalty against that) or the various Saurian races' advantages in terraforming circles.

But this is exactly what I'm talking about... Because we haven't gotten concrete information on the Casus Belli levels that might make the Humans, for instance, look better, the information that we got from the strategy guide (among other places) make them APPEAR to be weak.

I understand that they're almost certainly not as weak as they appear. I just wish I knew the specifics of those other "unmentioned bonuses" such as perhaps any Casus Belli advantages so that I'd have a better indication of the Humans (and each of the other races, for that matter).

	24-02-2003 15:24									#11
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Ok... now it seems JonahFalcon has given us the varius Casus Belli levels, Senate effectiveness levels, etc. for the different races in another thread.

In all such respects, the Evon and the Humans are IDENTICAL.

I guess we can toss the casus belli levels theory in the waste basket.

Now this situation REALLY doesn't add up. The Evon overwhelm the Humans in race picks (which would also directly impact race customization, as the Evons have more good picks to reduce in order to afford customized picks, whereas it would seem the Humans would be starved for points).

I'm just not convinced that we've got the whole picture here... this whole thing really just doesn't add up. I find it hard to believe that with as long as they've spent working on this game, one of the races would suffer such a glaring handicap. There's got to be something to make up for it, I just want to know what it might be already

	24-02-2003 22:46									#12
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They are ***NOT*** identical! Don't confuse the Magnate Civ stats with the race stats. Those numbers are just how the magnate civ affects the planet they're on. They have NOTHING to do with the Empire Races.

	25-02-2003 01:57									#13
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quote: Originally posted by JonahFalcon They are ***NOT*** identical! Don't confuse the Magnate Civ stats with the race stats. Those numbers are just how the magnate civ affects the planet they're on. They have NOTHING to do with the Empire Races.

Ok, didn't realize that's what you meant by your first post...

Well, I guess that leaves open the question of what other potential bonuses the Humans might enjoy compared to the Evon as hinted in Dream Weaver's post. I guess we'll just have to wait, then