23-02-2003 08:35									#1
	Bad mistakes during scenario creation Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The inspiration behind this thread is a stupid.....dum!!! mistake that I have made during the creation of my very own scenario. Without going into too much detail, I sat for several hours earlier utilising 6 different maps and atlases to add cities to my map so that it is as accurate as I can make it. And guess what?.. I forgot to save the bleedin thing. All I've got now when I load up is a damned settler!! Anyone who notices the time I have posted this thread will realise that I have just been out to drown my sorrows and infact the real inspiration behind this thread is too much "drowning". And I didn't even meet a nice lady..boo hoo.

Anyway, moving on... Can all you experienced designers discuss some of the mistakes that you have made during scenario creation so that newbies such as myself can learn and avoid these things in the future? Perhaps things more technical than forgetting to click the right mouse button so that your work has been saved.

	23-02-2003 08:42									#2
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PS, don't ya think Apolyton has got the greatest collection of thingamies (smilies) on the net?

	23-02-2003 12:11									#3
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I did that once in Herbstnebel but it wasn't so major... I had only made like three changes...

	23-02-2003 13:35									#4
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During Lost Paradise I had a mess with the rules files- I had about four different ones (including those f*cking ones with the .ger destination), and I accidentally used the wrong file overwriting the one I had been editing earlier (and had no backup of course). The changes weren't that big, but you can imagine me cursing out loud at my computer because the few changes I made didn't work because I didn't realize I mixed up those damn things.

Also, I abandoned and deleted about two or three good scenarios because I used the wrong labels and gamt.txt files - not realizing that until about one or two years later.

	23-02-2003 14:13									#5
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I had a wonder built inside of a city, then I deleted the city without the wonder being removed first and I lost the wonder, unable to be built from now on.

Pap

	23-02-2003 14:21									#6
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When I was working on the tech tree for American Empire , I actually completed it . . . and then shut it down without thinking . . . or saving (I was exhausted at that point).

It took several tries before I was sufficiently satisfied with Modern Age to continue it to completion. I actually started on a different map than the one I eventually used, scrapped almost all of it, and started over on a new map. I did write down the tech tree on a piece of paper though.

	23-02-2003 15:42									#7
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And exile, don't forget about the hills in modern age...

	23-02-2003 20:09									#8
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Well, thx for some pointers there. I'll be sure as not to make these mistakes. I hear you there Exile, that is exactly what I did. Also, I think upon reading Paps post that I deleted a city with something in it. So perhaps my incompetence is really a blessing in disguise. There should be a set of instructions called "Things you absolutely must remember when begining a scenario..cos yer can't go back and fix it later!!"

Well here are some of the things on my to do list

1) Flat World
2) No restarting destroyed nations
3) Blood Lust
4) Global Warming off (not sure how to set this...doesn't give an option..any advice?)
5) Fix rivers on map before next attempt as I don't know if you can add them using the FW scenario/cheat menu's

Last edited by Caspian on 23-02-2003 at 20:22

	23-02-2003 20:15									#9
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what?

	23-02-2003 20:18									#10
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That is a pretty open ended question you have there Ottok. On the same level as the eternal puzzle of...Why?

	23-02-2003 20:35									#11
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'what \hwät
pron[/] 1a - used as an interrogative in asking about an identity, nature, or value of a thing <[i]what is this><what do they earn><whatis wealth without friends> or about the character, occupation, or position of a person<what do you think I am, a fool> b - used as an exclamation expressing surprise or excitement and frequently introducing a question <what, no breakfast>
c - used in expressions directing attention to a statement that the speaker is about to make what> 2: that which: the one or ones that what get from my writings> 3: WHATEVER 1a what you will> [Old English whoet, neuter of wha "who]

This is all I could do for you, ottok, I hope that helps

	23-02-2003 20:45									#12
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About your points 1 - 5:

1, 2 and 3 can be fixed with CivTweak if you made the wrong decision at start-up.
4 can be set under "Edit Special Rules" in the "Scenario Parameters" in the Cheat menu.
5 can either be done through the "Harlan" method (easy, but tedious) as mentioned in Advanced Scenario Design (v1.9), or using MapCopy.

(all guides and utilities available at my civ2 website )

	23-02-2003 20:45									#13
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quote: 'what \hwät pron[/] 1a - used as an interrogative in asking about an identity, nature, or value of a thing <[i]what is this>

Thanks for the link Mercator. I see that I will have to read up on alot of things before I continue. I am hoping that scenario creation is like riding a bike in that, once done you never forget. However, I am begining to worry that perhaps my first attempt is abit ambitious and maybe I should produce a cheap and quick scenario to get some needed experience.

	23-02-2003 21:32									#14
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My big mistake; when I was making my first map, I let myself go out for a while. My sister came and turned the map editor off. My first great project was completely destroyed.

	23-02-2003 21:48									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Caspian .... However, I am begining to worry that perhaps my first attempt is abit ambitious and maybe I should produce a cheap and quick scenario to get some needed experience.

I know the feeling Caspian - I've started a scenario with a fairly large map, loads of cities, a completely new tech tree and it's all got a bit much - I doubt it will ever see the light of day. I've come to the conclusion that small and simple is best for a first attempt.

	23-02-2003 23:18									#16
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I often times do a bunch of unit placing, changing cities etc, and rather than closing the program dont I might mistakenly hit endter which ends the turn and puts me a turn ahead of where I want to be.

Main thing is save, save, save. The thing I am working on now has at least 7 saves... and its still not ready.

-FMK.

	24-02-2003 00:37									#17
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I once made a hugely detailed map of Argentina. I worked on it for six months, changing this and that till I was finally happy. Then I realised that I had forgotten to make the world flat. When I made it flat, the country was divided in half.

*cries*

In another scenario, I had the bad idea of making another 'build.sav' with a similar name. I kept making updated in one of them, but forgot the delete the other one. I stopped working on it for a couple of months, then came back, and continued updating stuff on the WRONG one. I deleted the other one, thinking it was the old one, then realised that 'hey, didn't I correct this bug before argharghargharghohshitohshitohshit!'

	24-02-2003 01:11									#18
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence In another scenario, I had the bad idea of making another 'build.sav' with a similar name. I kept making updated in one of them, but forgot the delete the other one. I stopped working on it for a couple of months, then came back, and continued updating stuff on the WRONG one. I deleted the other one, thinking it was the old one, then realised that 'hey, didn't I correct this bug before argharghargharghohshitohshitohshit!'

I've done this several times as well

	24-02-2003 01:22									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Stefan Härtel 'what \hwät pron[/] 1a - used as an interrogative in asking about an identity, nature, or value of a thing <[i]what is this><what do they earn><whatis wealth without friends> or about the character, occupation, or position of a person<what do you think I am, a fool> b - used as an exclamation expressing surprise or excitement and frequently introducing a question <what, no breakfast> c - used in expressions directing attention to a statement that the speaker is about to make what> 2: that which: the one or ones that what get from my writings> 3: WHATEVER 1a what you will> [Old English whoet, neuter of wha "who] This is all I could do for you, ottok, I hope that helps

AND my one BIG mistake is maked SCANERIOS!

	24-02-2003 02:06									#20
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I haven't made too many mistakes yet, but then I haven't made that many scenarios.

Saving often is a very important thing indeed! I think that's the only big mistake I've made. Most of the others are quite recoverable using one of the many utilities around.

When I started making scenarios I didn't realise you should build your scenario as a savegame first, and only create the scenario when you're done... Then again, I've just learned you can simply load the scenario file as if it were a savegame too.

El Awrence: you didn't throw away that map, did you?

	24-02-2003 03:09									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Pap1723 I had a wonder built inside of a city, then I deleted the city without the wonder being removed first and I lost the wonder, unable to be built from now on.

You should have mentioned this earlier Pap; with hex-editing you can make the wonder buildable again! I made the same mistake in my project and found this:

Hex-Edit.txt

In section 3 it tells you how to reactivate wonders:

quote: 3. WONDERS (source Allard Höfelt) Near the start of the saved game, at offset 266 until 321, is where all information about wonders is stored. All 28 wonders have 2 bytes of information for them, so in total the block for all wonders is 56 bytes long. If the 2 bytes for a wonder are - FF FF : the wonder has not yet been built. - FE* FF : the wonder is destroyed (city where it stood is not stored). - otherwise the number is the city ID number. 00 00 the very first city built, etc. * This document originally said EF, but that seems to be wrong.

What wonder's missing btw?

	24-02-2003 03:38									#22
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Uh, yesterday I used the CivEngineer* beta to remove all city present flags, rendering the cities inaccessible and iconless. Fortunately, I always make sequential SAV backups after every change so I only lost about three cities.

* the bloody thing won't add roads to all squares, though

	24-02-2003 04:07									#23
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Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. I should rename this thread to "The tale of woes". Just think how many great scenarios we might of had if it wasn't for a few seconds of madness or an untimely sneeze causing the click of the wrong button!

Anyway, it's all wonderfull info for new scenario designers such as myself. Geeze, some of these things I wouldn't even have dreamed of. Kinda backs up my idea of starting small and working up. But you know how it is when you've got something in your mind. And lets face it, the real reason for creating a scenario is that you yourself want to play it. That is the driving force behind my efforts anyway. Do scenario designers really learn from other people or do you have to make all of the mistakes for yourself?

	24-02-2003 11:58									#24
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I actually plan my scenrio on (gasp) paper, usually under a number of different headings (map, cities, resources, history, units) then move progressing down the list.

	24-02-2003 17:04									#25
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Mercator, no, of course I didn't. I even used it for my first proto-scenario... I simply divided the map with glacier where appropriate.

In any case, I ended up drawing a much nicer map later on.