24-02-2003 22:53									#31
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he sure likes to kill his own people to not give the other civs the satisfaction of conquering them.

I wonder if the other civs ever won a single battle against lux

	25-02-2003 00:31									#32
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Well, every world has it's Frenchmen.

	25-02-2003 01:28									#33
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Regarding the settler idea: Too bad it didn't work out. I would have disbanded him too just to keep my enemy from getting free workers.

Beta, we need to find out from Trip whether or not Portia is marked as their capital. I know the first city you build will be your capital. I do not know if that happens when your first city is given to you. If not, this could open up some interesting possibilities. I guess I need to do some testing tonight.

Contact with Lego: They do not have to make it all the way around the continent to reach us. All they need to do is make contact with one civ so the contact can be traded.

Maps: We need to get an agreement with GS and Lux that we will NOT trade any map that will reveal the location of Lux until Lux is in Legoland. That means no world map trades, and no trades of a territory map if that map would show the border of Lux. The sooner that Lux gets to Legoland the sooner they can start to rebuild, and the quicker we can reveal the world map and have the rest of the mainland civs scratching their heads.

Techs: Every time I played a Scientific civ I always got Monotheism. Since you can not trade a tech to another civ unless they have the ability to research that tech, we will get nothing from those three freebie techs from Lux. More important, Lux is going to need our help with tech research if they are to become viable again. Their research rate will be seriously curtailed until they can relocate and rebuild. They will get left in the dust if we do not help them.

Crossing the ocean: I think the best chance of this happening is for Lego to build the Great Lighthouse. They will probably need to cross sea, and maybe some ocean, to contact the mainland. We are too far away and will take too long to go around the main continent. I think there are some smaller islands in the Lego area. The could setup a city on one for Lux and they may be able to do some island hoping to make it to the mainland.

Lux build coordination: We need to work with Lux on what they will be building. I don't think they can spend all their time building galleys and settlers. I previously mentioned the Court House. We need to look at other good choices that work out for both of us since they may be there for a long time.

	25-02-2003 07:21									#34
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Reference: Portia is marked as their capital - It is marked as such. See last screen shots sent out.

I forgot that Lux as just a brighter color than us! At first I was wondering why the city trade didn't go through until I saw the "star" on Portolia and then realized that they are "Roman" red.

Well, I guess if they are going to hide and lick their wounds, they mght as well pick a civilization to hide in that is close to their own color.

	25-02-2003 07:27									#35
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Harry - yes - too bad about the settler.

Portia is now their capitol. You can see the star on the screen save.

Regarding techs - yes - I think you are right. I can't figure out any scenario where you enter the new era as a scientific civ, say hold it, don't give me the freebie until I do some trading. Nor can you gift a tech to a civ until they are in that era. So bit of a cartch-22. I will raise it with Trip and BFM to see if they have any ideas, or at least to start renegotiations on a couple of more techs.

Regarding contact - it will happen one way or the other. If possible, we need to convince Lego to come our way first. Not only will the contact be valuable, but it will help Lux on their way.

Question to all - should we share our wtitten agreement with Lux with Gathering Storm? They may need some assurance as to what we are up to. That and vondrack's letter should calm their nerves, if indeed they are nervous.

	25-02-2003 07:30									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich Well, I guess if they are going to hide and lick their wounds, they mght as well pick a civilization to hide in that is close to their own color.

Hadn't thought of it like that - but you are right. Wonder what the minimap image looks like. Hmmm.. Just checked on the recent screenshot. Pretty close.

	25-02-2003 07:36									#37
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound Question to all - should we share our wtitten agreement with Lux with Gathering Storm? They may need some assurance as to what we are up to. That and vondrack's letter should calm their nerves, if indeed they are nervous.

I concur, if GS is nervous about our arrangement with Lux, then a copy of the written agreement should go far to calm their nerves. This will also indicate our "openness" towards all civs on our landmass. If we don't share the agreement with GS, then they might think that we are hiding something.

	25-02-2003 10:55									#38
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GS is worried

using my possition as FA I think I might give them the deal

Jon Miller

	25-02-2003 11:43									#39
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GS wants us to limit to one combat unit int he Vox area

Jon Miller

	25-02-2003 11:48									#40
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I sent the Lux-Vox agreement to GS

Jon Miller

	25-02-2003 11:52									#41
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I tihnk we want an agreement with GS that if they get pissed off (IE Lux beraks an agreement with them), we get to take the city back, or if they do, they gift it back to us

Jon Miller

	25-02-2003 12:01									#42
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ah, we dont' have the same deal with lux
we don't give them our tech
they will want mapmaking though
see. they are desperate for cash. they could easily use their position to flip techs.
(and we want them to have it)
oh, you know that we both have contacs with the rest of the continent
we would deal with the tech first
yes, we want them to have MM, but not anything outside that path.
we won't give them anything else
great.
we might trade, but they won't have anything to trade for a while
(and yuo would get benifits of trade also)
oops.
ah, bad?
yes, not good.
so you want adon to the trade bill?
I don't think that there is anything special with lux
no. we do not want vox to give any tech to lux for any reason.
hmm, is that deal breaker for you guys, or can we have discussion on that?
we can make sure they get MM soon enough to get off our lands.
please discuss.
I mean, I guess it does not matter which of us trades with them (if they have something to trade)
but it is weird that that is such a big deal to you
I will present this request to Vox

	25-02-2003 12:02									#43
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oops

Jon Miller

	25-02-2003 12:11									#44
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we should have said we get Luxs world Map

Jon Miller

	25-02-2003 14:15									#45
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yes I wanted their map.

And what did you mean about the one combat unit? please clarify.

	25-02-2003 14:17									#46
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and what's the other deal.

They don't want us to trade their techs to Lux? Lux won't have much to trade anyways.

But surely they aren't saying we can't trade the techs we research to lux.

I don't think we need to give lux that much. Excpet map making. We have to give them that one.

	25-02-2003 19:11									#47
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Jon - I will not contact GS at all regarding this matter. I will leave this to you.

I agree map making is what we want to get to Lux. But I think making contact with Legoland will be easier. Then lego can build and gift Lux a city. And we can take ours back. That is a better plan than them sailing away. As has been mentioned before - they may not make it there via a galley.

	25-02-2003 19:34									#48
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[quote}
Beta wrote:
Regarding contact - it will happen one way or the other. If possible, we need to convince Lego to come our way first. Not only will the contact be valuable, but it will help Lux on their way.
[/quote]

It would be nice if Lego could come our way. Maybe they will get lucky and find some hopping points across the ocean to GS. It would be a lot easier with the G Lighthouse because they can use those occasional sea tiles in the middle of the ocean. My gut says there is no path to us across the eastern edge of the map. I think Lego will find islands N and/or NE of their position and they will lead to the main continent.

	25-02-2003 19:36									#49
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Jon,

I don't have a problem with sending the Lux-Vox agreement to GS if you think that will help. I would run it past Lux first. Estonia is a small land mass for three civs and I think GS is worried Lux will take some of their territory.

	25-02-2003 20:09									#50
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quote: Originally posted by HarryH It would be nice if Lego could come our way. Maybe they will get lucky and find some hopping points across the ocean to GS. It would be a lot easier with the G Lighthouse because they can use those occasional sea tiles in the middle of the ocean. My gut says there is no path to us across the eastern edge of the map. I think Lego will find islands N and/or NE of their position and they will lead to the main continent.

I suspect you are right Harry. they will likely make contact first with the other continent - and I assume that is RolePlay - who from what I can figure out - are on the far side of that continent from us.

	25-02-2003 20:15									#51
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GS wants only 1 of our combat units in Lux territory (unless we are going to take it back)

also, they feel that since Lux is an expert trader (like the Feringi it was put) that trading with lux would give them advantage

I admit I am not really sure on why the trading thing is a big deal

the combat thing I would agree to

on the trading, maybe I should suggest that if either of us trades with lux, that we have to get the others permission first?

also, there was a lot of talk about if GS and Lux went to war, what side Vox would go on

Jon Miller

	25-02-2003 20:50									#52
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quote: GS wants only 1 of our combat units in Lux territory (unless we are going to take it back)

What? What does that has to do with them?

	25-02-2003 23:10									#53
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I'm not sure I agree with the one unit. But here is what I propose. We keep the spearman in their terrirtory. The warrior goes back to his watching post we agreed upon early in the game. Which is on the mountain to the southeast.

And I think that is too much gold to give them. I cannot accpet that. At most they should only get half of what they gave us. 75 gold. Even that is too much. What good is map making if their galley gets destoryed by new demo or roleplay? I still think they have little hope of getting a galley anywhere. And what do they need writing for? If they want that, they should negotiate a per turn gold deal.

150 gold was the deal for us bailing them out. I really do not want to give that up. We had a deal after all. I'll post this in the FA thread, because this is in response to the recent correspondance from Trip.

There must be another way.

	26-02-2003 01:35									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller also, there was a lot of talk about if GS and Lux went to war, what side Vox would go on

Considering that Lux's capital is actually our city - I believe the choice would be rather obvious since GS attacking Lux's only city is in reality, GS attacking Vox!

	26-02-2003 01:49									#55
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quote: Jon wrote: also, they feel that since Lux is an expert trader (like the Feringi it was put) that trading with lux would give them advantage

They were an expert trader because of circumstances. They were in a unique position of being the conduit between us and the rest of the main continent civs. Now that we have writing and communications with the other civs that has all changed.

I don't like the idea of requiring us to get GS permission to trade with Lux or anyone else. That would tie our hands too much and prevent us from taking quick action if it was needed (such as the recent Lux situation).

	26-02-2003 02:18									#56
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I agree 115% with Dissident on the gold issue. The 150 is like a signing bonus. If theye were going to be able to survive in some other way without our help, then I was willing to act as a bank fo rtheir cash for a small fee. But now that we are the ones bailing them out, and using one of our own cities, arghh. Besides - the agreement says 150 gold.

And I still say the better approach is for Lego to contact us somehow, and then they build and gift them a city. Or, we could 'lend' them 40 gold now, say 2 per turn for the next 20 turns to aid tgeir research. But then they pay us back.

And I am not sure about the unit thing either. GS' attitude, is p***ing me off again. I understand their rationale, but give me a break.

I agree 115% with Harry as well abou the trading thing.
And rather than have to give Lux gold to give to GS for writing, why don't we just give Lux writing ourselves. The rest of the world has it. No big deal.

	26-02-2003 03:24									#57
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The turn is rolling around quickly. What about the idea of giving Lux writing? We should decide before the next turn.

	26-02-2003 04:19									#58
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I don't want to give them writing. As we didn't research that tech. And this would cause friction with GS

But I don't want to give gold to Lux to gain wrting.

Surely another deal can be worked out. A per turn gold deal. Although they probably are only bringing in 1 or 2 gold per turn.

	26-02-2003 04:58									#59
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quote: Jon wrote: GS wants only 1 of our combat units in Lux territory (unless we are going to take it back)

In our agreement when GS are we only allowed so many units in the area by the mountains? If not, then it should make no difference to them how many units we have near Portia as it is not their territory. Are they afraid we will attack Lux or GS?

	26-02-2003 05:00									#60
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quote: Wittlich wrote: Considering that Lux's capital is actually our city - I believe the choice would be rather obvious since GS attacking Lux's only city is in reality, GS attacking Vox!

It's not so obvious. We could decide it is in our best interests to attack Lux to get our city back. Especially if this arrangement we have them goes bad.