23-02-2003 09:58									#1
	Survival Of Lux!!! Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ok - this is similar to your future of lux thread, Diss, but I had to get people's attention. Here is what is up. You will recall my offer to Lux to 'take' their gold to prevent it from falling into the hands of either Neu D or GoW. Well, Trip contacted me this evening- and asked to chat - which we did.

To start with - they are sending us 150 gold, accepted at their end, along with the agreement for communications with GS. This will keep GS happy.

The war does not go well. Lux's last city gets destroyed next turn. But they have produced a settler, which keeps their civ alive. They want a city.....

Trip agrees to put in writing an agreement whicjh would go something like this.

They get the city for 40 turns or so. Enough to produce a settler, a galley, get map making, etc. Enough to migrate to another part of the world. We get the 150 gold, and our city back. And - an ally for the remainder of the game. This he has promised. I even made him cross his heart.

So - it would obviously be Dissidentville we would give them. It is not doing too much for us right now as it is.

Some issues. How will GS feel about it? This is probably why GS was so eager for contact with Lux. They may have been thinking of doing this. You need communications to do it.

Even if this was not GS' intent, they will need to be on-side. It may be seen as a fairly aggressive move by us.

If Lux's word means much - and we don't have a lot to go on here - we could have an ally in both them and Legoland - which is where they say they are headed. We should check with legoland on this. But Lux as an ally won't be worth much until they rebuild. We may also make some enemies doing this.

Or GS, Lux, and Vox could be a solid alliance.

Or GS and Lux turn on us.

So - there are some high risks here. On the other hand, I for one hate to see a team out of the game so early. And I do work in the social housing field and work with the homeless and hard to house - maybe this influences my views.

I am up for doing this. It will add some excitement to the game. Maybe when I sleep on it I will feel differently. Late night euphoria!!!

At any rate - we should not be too quick to play our turn until we have decided what we want to do.

	23-02-2003 10:44									#2
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Finished some further chatting with Trip. He is quite sincere about this request, as far as I can figure. It will be in writing.

It would sure keep the game interesting. We just have to work out what the benefits are going to be for us.

And one benefit I can think of is that we may get Dissidentville back in a much better developed state than we provided it to them. It will be their capitol for awhile, so zero corruption. They will need to clear out some jungle and improve some tiles.

	23-02-2003 13:06									#3
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this may impact our research rate. It does sound exciting, but what's in it for us? Just the 150 gold I suppose.

As for security. We have to insist on keeping our warriors just outside the city boundaries and insisting they move no units outside those boundaries- in either direction.

How many turn will it take for all that stuff? how long does he expect to have the city. We could look at what the city is producing economically and how many turns we will be without it.

Hold on I'll take a look at the game real quick.

	23-02-2003 13:12									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Dissidentville is only bringing in 2 commerce right now. 1 is wasted on corruption. It will grow to size 2 next turn though. But we will probably only gain 1 commerce, the other will be lost to corruption.

There is one serious issue. How does Lux plan on getting to the other continent with a galley? The only way to do it possibley is to go around the main contient. Which will be very dangerous for them. They may get their galley destroyed.

They will be hoplessly behind. I'm not sure what Trip plans to do. Maybe he wants to survive long enough to build one nuke and nuke new demo Even if he loses he will get that satisfaction.

	23-02-2003 13:14									#5
	Got spare money?

and how does he plan on getting map making? We could trade it to them when we get it. But we don't have it yet.

and how does he plan on getting that galley anywhere without it being lost at sea or destroyed?

	23-02-2003 19:14									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Diss - good points. I have PM'd Trip with your question. My sense is that right now they are desperate and grasping at straws. They may not be lookinng at just the next couple of turns and survival, and may not have thought out the entire long-term plan.

	23-02-2003 19:32									#7
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Just PM'd vondrack of Legoland with this.

Hi vondrack - I'm contacting you directly as vondrack, the Legolander.

A very serious matter is currently under debate in the Vox Controli senate. Lux Invicta - and Trip personally - has approached us on a matter of survival. Their last city will be destroyed this turn. They have produced a settler - which keeps them alive - for a bit. They have asked for one of our cities - a coastal city - to which they can 'migrate'. They have also moved their gold reserves to the central vault of Vox Controli for safe keeping.

Their plan is to occupy the city for 40-50 turns and then they would turn it back over to us. They need sufficient time to build a galley and a settler, and to migrate once again. They say they have discussed with Legoland the possibility of settling on your continent. I am asking if you could verify the veracity of this last statement, and whether you are in agreement with their plans.

I for one, would not like to see Lux exit the world stage so early. Indeed, having a nomadic civilization would add considerable spice to the game. However, Lux's reputation has been slagged in a number of threads, and although we are a kind and peaceful civilization, we do not want to get blind-sided. Trip seems very sincere about this, and agrees to put it in writing.

We also see a long-term benefit of bringing the three civilizations of Lux and Vox and Lego closer together.

If you could provide me with Legoland's view on this matter, it would be greatly appreciated.

Our regards to you and the fine people of Legoland.

BetaHound, Voice of Foreign Affairs, Vox Controli

	23-02-2003 20:45									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Vondracks's response. I now say that we do this.

RE: Lux and ptwdg
Hi, BetaHound!

I fully confirm that we are conducting negotiations with Lux Invicta, offering them permanent refuge on our landmass. Even though details of the agreement have not been finalized yet, I am quite sure that a deal will be made sooner or later.

For us, it is more or less the "proper" thing to do... as you say, losing one team so early would not be fun. We do have a piece of land Luxes could live, possibly even becoming more than just a surviving mini-civilization. The land we have offered them is not paradise, but it is a place they could develop their nation in relative peace.

I also assume that having someone quite bitterly pitched against GoW and ND may very well serve our purpose in the future.

So, if you are in a position to lend them one of your cities, go ahead and save their life. All they will need is one galley and a settler (you can demand they are prohibited from building military units). We will take care of the rest.

Best regards,
vondrack

	23-02-2003 20:54									#9
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I think one condition on this should be that the city be renamed Portia, who in the Merchant of Venice argued:

The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives, and him that takes.
Tis mightiest in the mightiest. It becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown.

Wm. Shakespeare.

	23-02-2003 21:44									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I tend to believe Lux and to agree.

But, 150 gold is not enough.

How about this? When/If they survive and get a decent civ going again, they will be obliged to give us(if/when they have them) 10 technologies or their equivalent in money/luxuries.

Basically, they cant give anything of importance now, but they might be able to give later.

We should also consider the option of GS attacking Dissville when it's in Lux's hands.

	23-02-2003 22:35									#11
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Ok, I to concur with "loaning" Lux our city. Do we have a unit garrisoned in the city? If we do, we will need to move it out prior to "giving" them the city or it (the unit) will be lost.

This should prove to be an interesting twist to the game!

	23-02-2003 22:40									#12
	Got spare money?

Darn!

I wanted to post a chat log but my clipboard ****ed it up.

	23-02-2003 23:07									#13
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One other thing. Can we get their map or is it too late? Roleplay says they see the remains of their capitol, so they probably cannot even trade maps. Hell I don't even know if we can give them a city if they have none.

	23-02-2003 23:23									#14
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also we will need to contact GS and let them know what is happening. Also I would like to ask GS keep this a secret for now. and pledge not to attack Lux- as that is really our city and will respond as so.

We will station the spearman to the south of the city along with the warrior as a lookout.

	23-02-2003 23:42									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident ...Also I would like to ask GS keep this a secret for now. and pledge not to attack Lux- as that is really our city and will respond as so.

My exact same thoughts.

	24-02-2003 00:18									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yup - I have chatted with Sir Ralph and he is taking the matter back to GS.

Diss - Lux produced a settler which allows them to keep their civ alive.

Eli and I had a good chat with them - Trip and BFM. Trip is drawing up the agreement now for our review. Eli was bad cop in the negotiations and I was good cop. We are getting their commitment on a fair bit of technology, and a written guarantee of friendship for the remainder of the game.

We should wait for this agreement before we playand send our turn.

	24-02-2003 00:49									#17
	Dissentville Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I just realized something.

Since we are going to be "loaning" Dissentville to Lux, the ability to hook-up the iron deposit near Dissentville will be lost to us for some time.

So we need to get another city placed on the eastern side of our landmass in order to hook-up the iron deposit located there.

I know this is just a minor inconvenience for us, but with a little planning, it should be ok.

Because of the pending agreement with Lux, I believe the next city to be founded (after Elipolis) should now intail the second (eastern most) iron deposit. What do you all think?

I guess I should have placed this post in the "city planning" thread, but since this invovles the deal with Lux, I went ahead and placed it here.

Last edited by Wittlich on 24-02-2003 at 01:16

	24-02-2003 01:25									#18
	Tired of ads?

Yes - I agree 100% Witt. And we now go with the 3 city arrangement. Using #4 and #5 from the city chart. #5 will be next - as mentioned in the city planning thread, the worker is going to have to road a few more tiles - the jungle tile just south of where he is roading now, and then the mountain tile with the iron.

	24-02-2003 07:34									#19
	Remove this text

This is the agreement that Trip and I hammered out today after the Trip, BFM, Eli, Beta chat earlier. I agreed to on the team's behalf. It was finalized at 20:00hrs est tonight via PM.

Re: Official Agreement Document


The Lux Invicta team and Vox Controli team hereby agree to all of the following:

- On the turn of 1550 BC, the Vox Controli team hereby agrees to send the Lux Invicta team a trade offering the city "Portia" with the status of "ACCEPTED" when sent.

- This city will be held by the Lux Invicta team for an undetermined period of time until after Lux Invicta has built a new city on another continent or landmass, or later than that as otherwise agreed to by Vox Controli. When this aspect of the contract expires and the Lux Invicta team is set to relinquish control of "Portia", the Vox Controli team is hereby permitted to declare war on the Lux Invicta team, and regain control of the city. After this, the teams will then make peace at the earliest opportunity.

- During the time of occupation of this city, the Lux Invicta team is hereby prohibited from settling any new cities on the continent upon which the Vox Controli team resides, unless agreed to by Vox Controli. They will not give possession of this city to any other team during the contract period, and will return the city to Vox Controli control via the process described above only at the conclusion of this treaty. During possession of this city, Lux Invicta agrees to produce at least one worker and to use that worker to either remove jungle from, and/or make improvements to, the tiles adjacent to "Portia". This worker will be left in the city for Vox Controli as per the re-possession process described above.

- For compensation of this treaty, the Lux Invicta team hereby agrees to send to the Vox Controli team, a sum of 6 technologies total. 3 of these will be the free technologies given to scientific civilizations per era, and 3 other techs, one from each of the following eras remaining in the game. The actual techs to be given will be agreed to by the Lux Invicta and Vox Controli teams at the earliest and most convenient opportunity possible. Should this not be ahered to for reason of common decision by both the Lux Invicta or Vox Controli teams, this treaty is void. If there are other unavoidable problems not brought about directly by actions of either team, then a resolution to this situation will be negotiated by the two teams.

- The Lux Invicta team also agrees to provide the Vox Controli the sum of 150 gold, minus whatever is found to be necessary to acquire the "Map Making" technology, as is needed by the Lux Invicta team.

- From this day forward, the two teams of Lux Invicta and Vox Controli will swear an alliance of friendship with each other, forever coming to each others aid when necessary, and never acting towards each other in a hostile manner, except for the one condition mentioned above for the re-possession of "Portia". This term will lie in place until agreed to by both the Lux Invicta and Vox Controli teams to void it, should this ever be desired by both the teams.

- The expiration of this contract will take place only when officially declared VOID by both teams. From that point on, the status quo will be re-established, minus the terms of this agreement which have set forth as otherwise. The Vox Controli team will then regain control of the city "Portia" by any means deemed necessary.


Lux Invicta
Document signed as official by 'Trip', King of the Lux Invicta team.
1550 BC

Document signed as official by 'BetaHound', Voice of Foreign Affairs for Vox Controli.
1550BC

	24-02-2003 09:17									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think this is a good thing. Keeping Lux in the game will keep the other mainland civs off balance. When they do though, it may be us -vs- them. Eventhough lux will take a while to recover, in the long run another friendly civ will be a plus.

We will lose very little from Dissidentville since it will be highly corrupt for a while. All the dissidents in that city will be more productive under a new leadership.

This has to be done quickly as a lone settler may not last long. I am sure the other civs will have units looking for the lost city that is keeping Lux alive and you never know when a Barbarian will appear.

I would like to see some changes to the plan/agreement. The first thing is that we should ask Lux to build a Court House in the city. Without any corruption they will be able to build it much faster. Unless they are in the city a very long time getting the city back with the CH will more than make up for the time Lux has the city.

The second change is for Lux to ask Lego to give them a city instead of trying to get a settler to Legoland. I don't think a galley will make the trip. It will take them a long time to successfully make the journey, either through multiple galley attempts or getting the right tech. It will be much faster for Lego to build and give them a city. They should time it so that Lego gives them a city right after Lux finishes building the CH for us. Once we take our city back their capital would relocate to the city Lego gave them. They would be safely relocated to Legoland without risking galleys.

The third change is that Lux should give us their world map as soon as one of us has Map Making. This will allow us to see what part of the mainland looks like.

Since the Lux settler is going to die sooner or later, maybe they can try to get to the tip we see of the mainland. If they build a city there and give it to us we could make use of it. Being close to our capital it shouldn't have too much corruption. It will probably require us rushing a defender. This would make the mainland civs scratch their head trying to figure out how we got across the water. It could also p iss them off once they figure out what happened.

	24-02-2003 14:08									#21
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I agree. They can't go east because the ocean is too big. Going around the main continent is too dangerous.

The problem as I see it is I don't think they can establish a city until they get navigation and galleons.

The best shot is for them to work out a deal with Lego. Have lego build a city out in the middle of nowhere for Lux to take over. And of course Lego will have to go around the main continent to get to us. They will have to take the long way around. But the oceaon on their east side might be too big as well...


And finally why do we have to declare "war" on them to get the city back? Why can they just not trade it to us as we did to them?

	24-02-2003 14:10									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

great ideas about having htem build on the tip of the continent.

If they can make it I would like to see that happen.

One more thing we must realize is how this affects us diplomatically with nations such as New Demo. They may not like us harboring their enemy when they eventually find out.

I suggest we use the term "exile". That is probably the best word to use.

	24-02-2003 17:24									#23
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Harry - YES! Great idea about the settler. I will PM Trip immediately. Welcome back by the way.

	24-02-2003 17:36									#24
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Oooh, we're going to be a terrorist harboring country.

Arent the techs sci civs get every era identical? So that whatever they will get, we will have too?

	24-02-2003 18:54									#25
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The only reason I see in declaring war to retake Dissidentville would be if we retake the city with an Immortal - and hense triggering our golden age... other than that, I'm not sure why Lux couldn't just give the city back to us.

	24-02-2003 19:15									#26
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yes

I agree Wittlich

Jon Miller

	24-02-2003 19:19									#27
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The problem is that as it is their only city now - it becomes their capitol. And you can't give a capitol away. Now - they could produce another capitol building a palace, but ...ouch ... that costs. Especially when you only have two cities.

	24-02-2003 19:24									#28
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Eli Oooh, we're going to be a terrorist harboring country. Arent the techs sci civs get every era identical? So that whatever they will get, we will have too?

I like to think of it more as a refugee camp. Then again, maybe they are one and the same, as history has often shown us.

Regarding the techs at the start of an era - I was thinking teh same thing, but didn't have time to walk through the logic. There should be someway of getting a different tech - such as... Civ A gets to the new era - gets the free tech and passes it to Civ B. IF they can - I guess that is the issue if Civ B is 5 turns behind CivA in getting there. Can you pass a tech to a civ if they are not in a new era? If not, then Eli could well be right.

	24-02-2003 19:36									#29
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ah yes, I forgot that since the city will be their capital, they can't give it away. Ok, makes sense and we can still trigger our GA if we use an immortal.

	24-02-2003 21:41									#30
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Trip's response on the settler idea:

Re: Your settler
Unfortunately, that plan won't work, though it would have been a good idea.

The ND swordsmen were right next to our settler and had him pinned in. There was no way for him to get out of a small outcropping alive without having to fight 2 ND swordsmen off. This wouldn't have been possible, so we elected to disband him on our previous turn. It's unfortunate, but necassary. We should be able to continue fine however, so let's see what we can accomplish.