23-02-2003 17:50									#1
	Graz: Plan de Campagne Full PM-box? Change here!

I did some testing and turns out my initial thoughts on attacking Graz were wrong: on a test map, I only won 3 out of 12 battles, with 2-6 enemies (mostly Archers) surviving in the battles that were lost. The main reason for this is that a forest only gives +25% defense, as opposed to the +50% as I initially assumed. I think there should be a 2nd stack when we attack but we shouldn't allow the Austrians more time to reinforce the defenses further, so we should form this stack NOW.

Outline on how to do so:

Pedrunnia currently has 5 units. We can take 4 of these to form a 2nd army. To not leave Pedrunnia too weak, we can rush-buy the Archer there (cost: 532 Gold) and move a Hoplite from CL (which currently has 3 units with a Hoplite from mapfipolis on its way), giving the city 3 defenders in 2 turns time. Slightly risky, but only slightly, and well worth the reward.

Pressburg currently has 3 units. We should take 2 for the 2nd army, move the Warrior just outside the city inside and rush-buy the Archer (cost: 363), giving the city once again 3 units in the next turn. Safe.

H Town currently has 2 units defending it. We should take both for the 2nd army. The units won't have to leave the city for another 3 turns though (because the units from Pressburg and Pedrunnia need some time to move into position) and the city only needs 4 turns to build the next 2 units, so it'll be equally defended as it is now 1 turn after the units leave. Slightly risky, but well worth the reward.
The only problem here is happiness: with <3 units, the city has a happiness of <73. So it might revolt, delaying the contruction of units. To prevent this, we should increase wages or rations for the turns in which the city has less than 3 defenders (in the foreseeable future that will be the case for a total of 5 turns). Graz will have a very low happiness as well, so for 2 of these 5 turns we're gonna have to do that anyway (since Graz needs to pump out units ASAP as well).

This gives us 8 units to form a second army. According to the tests I did, that should always be sufficient to take Graz. This army can be formed on the grassland+river tiles east of Graz in 4 turns, with 1/2 movement point left - enough to attack the city. The stack of 12 can attack from the Forest north of Graz in 3 turns, so if we keep it where it is for 1 more turn, we can attack with both stacks 'simultaneously' (in the same turn). In the best-case scenario, we won't even need the 2nd army and can use it to hunt Barbs/Austrians, in the worst-case scenario we'll loose all but 2 or 3 of our total of 20 units in the attack - still a good start for a garrison in Graz.

The cost of this plan is 895 Gold due to rush-buying, some city growth or gold and science due to reduced sliders and a (very) small risk of a surprise attack from the Barbs at a time when we can't afford it. This is expensive in itself but since we'll get one of the best cities on the map in return I'd still call it a bargain.

Thoughts?

	23-02-2003 18:23									#2
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I was going to start this poll tomorrow afternoon after having the result from the polls. But if you wnt to rush thing up
So...

you do like to rush buy things dont you. but there is no need to do so much rush buying. In my plan the ida is only to think about this once:

Turn 1: Move two units from mapfipolis (archer and hop) to Colonia Locuta (they will arrive in CL in turn 3).

Turn 2: Colonia Locuta will have 4 units by that time. We wait the stack from mapfipolis arrive. We may consider rush buying the archer in mapfipolis now!

Turn 3: The 2 units from mapfipolis just arrive in Colonia Locuta counting 6 units in it. The unit building in Colonia Locuta will be built in one turn. For any reason if not we rush buy it.

Turn 4: There are 7 (1 archer from building) units in colonia Locuta. We leave a hoplite and a archer. Sending 4 hoplites and 1 archer to Pedrunnia which will arrive in turn 7.

Turn 5: Not much to do here other than move the units from CL to Pedrunnia.

Turn 6: In Pedrunnia the defense will be 4A and 2H (And one turn to finish a hop). The army arrives in Pedrunnia and we create the second army composed of 5 Hops and 4 Archers. leaving 1H and !A in the Pedrunnia Defenders. If we send units from H Town we can have a even bigger stack.

Turn 7: We send the second army to Graz going along the river or from the path give by the game. Dont really matter. The unit will be ready to atack Graz in turn 11.

Mean while what to do with the Fisrt Army. Defend our cities during all this time. I dont like this idea. I rather send it to a campaing either in Graz or Wels.

1) Keep protecting untill all the second stack ready. Not much rather then kill possible threats.
The attack to Graz will be in 11 turns

2) In case of a capaign in Graz we wont atack it but make a reckon. In the tiles near it and prevent other units to arrive in it.
The attack to Graz will be in 11 turns

3) A capaign in Wels wold be to conquer it (8 turns) leave wounded units (2-3 units) and back to H Town (8 turns). In H Town add more units (I believe the units will be there after all these turns) and send it to Graz (4 turns).
The attack to Graz will be in 19 turns

Note: The second poll went wrong here. I just wanted to know if we should send a attack to Wells or keep protecting H Town while the second stack is not ready. Graz and Troppau were more like dumb options.
But people are voting for a suicidal attack in Graz without a second stack meanwhile they want a stack in the poll about its size. I guess people are thinkng the question is: "Should we attack Graz or Wels" like i was removing Graz from a option to attack. It was a misuderstodment.

Last edited by Pedrunn on 23-02-2003 at 18:36

	23-02-2003 18:37									#3
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If not rush-buying, what DO you want to use the money for? Every 'dollar' we invest now, could be worth ten times its value in 100 turns. Since there's no interest or anything, any money we don't spend will still be worth exactly the same amount in 100 turns.

12 turns to attack? WAY too long: Graz can build at least 4 units in this time. With 2 more archers and Samurai, 8 or 9 extra units may not be enough and you'd need to wait even longer...

With my plan they can build maybe 1 more unit (possibly 2), which 8 units should be able to handle.

Plus, we have 5 cities, why only use 3 to form the 2nd army?

Last edited by Locutus on 23-02-2003 at 18:42

	23-02-2003 18:42									#4
	Got spare money?

Yor plan takes 8 turn to a attcak to Graz and a smaller army (I read this as mor losses). I rather wait 3 more turns and saves us 859 gold, the risk to loose some of cities and the regard loss from expeling an scottish settler.

I must remind you thatwe have a size 4-5 Austrian stack near Pressburg. Some barbs around (size 2 last time thay showed up). Not to mention an atack from Wels (very unlike but with those weak defenses who knows) and some more new barbs that can show up. Not to mention other civs.

Last edited by Pedrunn on 23-02-2003 at 22:08

	23-02-2003 18:42									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Read it again: it takes 4 turns.

(Have to go now, more on this tonight)

	23-02-2003 19:08									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Plus, we have 5 cities, why only use 3 to form the 2nd army?

Actually 4 since i also considered we could increase the size of the second army with units from H Town. Which would increase the size of the army to may 10-12 units. (what would indeed decrease the number of deaths)
Dont want to take units from Pressburg unless in case to refuel the units in H Town Since the city is difficult the most difficult to reach.

quote: it takes 4 turns.

So you plan to send the units in different stacks from Pressburg, H Town and Pedrunnia to meet in the Graz site. This makes your olan even more dangerous. How can you be sure a barb/Austrian Stack wont show up intercepting the units from Pressburg or even more dangerous, the units from Pedrunnia?
Thats like rolling dices! And in the best scenario the attack will be 5 turns and not in 4.

	23-02-2003 21:41									#7
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i think that the austrians will be concentrating on H town and pressburg. But locutus' plan seems to work with the need to limit the austrians war machine.

Right now the austrians are out producing us (or we may be about the same, im not to sure) If we take graz then we now gain the unit factory we need to win the war.

After we get graz we can easily regarrison all of our cities. then with the extra production from graz we can rebuild the attacking forces.

	24-02-2003 03:27									#8
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Well we should get Graz as soon as possible - and yes a two stack attack will be best. Although i'm not convinced that taking Graz will be the end of the austrians, they seem to have lots of cities(most quite new i hope). Still once Graz is ours we will be in a much better position to take and keep the other good austrian cities. We look really small stuck between Austria and Germany at the momment.
Small to medium risks i can live with for the sake of immidiate gains to the good.

	24-02-2003 04:41									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

i think we can have in in less than 4 turns

	24-02-2003 16:52									#10
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IMO Locutus' plan is a good one though Pedrunn's reserves are equally understandable. Attacking Graz with a single stack is doomed to failure, we must have a second stack ready to attack Graz in the same turn and the sooner the better.
While we are building the second stack our 12 units stack could be used to hunt for barbarians and smaller Austrian stacks in the area which would reduce the threat hanging over our newly conquered cities and lower Austria military strength.

	24-02-2003 18:57									#11
	Remove this text

My comments: the plan is a go.

I suggested a similar, if slightly less risk taking plan, immediately after last Friday's game.

I like the speed of the plan... its just that important to move this quickly. Our relatively clear vision range gives us good opportunity to take a little risk here.

In terms of being a turning point, Graz will be huge... the size, river and improvements are massive advantages. It not only adds to our empire, in big ways, it takes one of the best settling sites that the Austrians have close to hand...

Speed is of the essense.

Get the 12 stack in place, ASAP. It lets us see activity around Graz... especially movement out.

Get an additional stack together to assure victory. It doesn't need to be huge, just enough.

MrBaggins

	24-02-2003 19:49									#12
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If we wait any longer than necessary to attack Graz, we’ll be up the creek without a paddle. I think Locutus’ plan sounds best. But lets not rush things too much – it would be rather disastrous (not to mention embarrassing) if we attack to early and lose all our units.

	25-02-2003 01:21									#13
	Remove this text

if we can get a full force(12stack and 8-10stack) up and running fast how can that hurt us. I dont think the barbarian threat is great because of the size of our nation. The austrains are pre-occupied with h town and pressburg.

The earlier we attack the less austrians we have to deal with.

I think of Graz as a trophy to be aquired by us, once we get it we can move on to the other old(and large) austrian cities. The small ones can be ignored since they dont have much defense to begin with.

	26-02-2003 04:34									#14
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WE HAVE CONQURED GRAZ

with our 12 stack and still have 4 archers, our second stack was not needed.

arty: arty: arty:

	26-02-2003 04:50									#15
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like i said, one stack is enough, but no one ever listens to me

	26-02-2003 05:03									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It was only not needed because they were unfortified
if they had stayed fortified, the extra stack WOULD have been needed.

	26-02-2003 05:16									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Plus, I was counting on City Walls, but apparently the suicide attack had destroyed them(?) Very...destructive Warriors...