23-02-2003 22:47									#1
	Which way should our new galley explore? Remove this text

I think this is important enough to post a poll on ASAP as we need to make a decision by next turn (my apologies on usurping the appropriate minister on this but time is of the essence)

Which way should our galley explore?

1) Vondrack has proposed that we go west with this galley and explore our continent counter clockwise

2) I propose that we move eastward seeing if there are any other narrows that ND, Lux or GoW may cross to our continent from and move down to the RP coastline (whether we decide to establish contact with RP would be determined at a later date)

3) Make a direct line to the RP coastline

4) Do nothing and establish the "Galley" floating restaurant in Panama - good food and cheap prices

5) Abstain from voting

WE WILL NEED A DECISION ON THIS VERY SOON AS THE GALLEY WILL BE READY TO SAIL NEXT TURN

Last edited by Sharpe on 23-02-2003 at 22:56

	24-02-2003 00:04									#2
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Go West. Maybe we can find an island. Going east it is sure we won't.

	24-02-2003 00:06									#3
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I think we know there is a crossing to the SE, and we aren't overly keen on contact before we get the GLib so I say go west and make sure there isn't a crossing. That could leave us open from that side too.

	24-02-2003 01:35									#4
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No surprise, I will chime in with Tiberius and redstar1.

The crucial questions are:

Why would we want to send our galley to that RP crossing?
What good would be our galley there?

I mean.. we do not want to make any contacts prior to finishing the Great Library, because with no contacts the outer world has no clue about what we are doing - and that is exactly what we need. Thus, we would not send it across... the galley would just sit there, doing nothing...

The galley would not be able to block outsiders from coming to our mainland, should they be coming. BTW, keep in mind that according to our intel (confirmed from two sources, Luxes and GS), nobody has discovered Map Making so far and nobody, but Luxes now, is actually eager to research it... there are techs the others need more... Map Making is only good to get to us... to a tech weak civ. Why should they bother? They know we will go to them, even if they don't care about us...

We would find nothing new there - we now know for sure that it is possible to cross the sea there, so we have to consider settling our SE somewhat faster... but as far as naval exploration goes, sending our galley there is just plain waste...

Besides, we have already indicated to RPers (who were first to point out the potential crossing to us) that we would not be able to get to them any time soon. Doing otherwise might very well undermine their trust in us. They would catch us lying... which would not help us in the long run.

Thus, I say, let's take our time and circumnavigate our landmass in the counter clockwise direction, making sure that our SE, which we now know about, is the only area to be considered as far as any visitors from the outside are concerned.

I feel very strongly about sailing westwards, checking our western coast - there, we might find a surprise... the eastern coast in not a variable any longer.

Oh, btw, this of course rules out The Great Lighthouse as the second wonder. O2E becomes GLib + Pyramids now. That's even better, I would say...

	24-02-2003 02:06									#5
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Too bad we don't have 2 galleys. Maybe we''ll build one with Forkmouth or the next city (east from Farmerville).

	24-02-2003 02:12									#6
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It looks as though you have the votes so far Vondrack.

I don't see the reason to avoid contact really - we can avoid switching to either GLib or Pyramids at Jackson until it nears 300 shields. At that point we will have 9 turns left before completion. Sure someone can switch an existing wonder they are building to that but the chance of them having more shields than us are slim.

If we do start building a 2nd wonder in Panama, we can use the GLighthouse as a placeholder. It wouldn't surprise most that we were building it due to our isolation.

The real danger would be Great Leaders being used to speed their wonder building and that would happen whether they know that we are building a wonder or not.

By sailing west it would take over 30 turns to reach the spot near MercG, Nimitz told me that RP would probably be upset if they found out that we delayed contacting them - We can't afford to have RP turn on us, we have no other potential ally and have Lux coming toward us.

East we could make it in 10 turns but we can also delay by exploring into the sea squares and to also check out whether there are any more narrows.

My suggestion would be: go east either now or with our next galley - and delay the start of our Panama wonder
by building another galley there or make the galley our first build in Forkmouth and go west from there.

With the counter clockwise exploration strategy and the O2E double wonder, if someone manages to get the GLib before us and we avoid contact, we will have signed our death certificate as I feel we would be putting all of our eggs in one basket with little or no flexibility.

I will abide what the Senate decides - I just don't happen to agree with Vondrack's plan.

	24-02-2003 05:56									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe I don't see the reason to avoid contact really - we can avoid switching to either GLib or Pyramids at Jackson until it nears 300 shields. At that point we will have 9 turns left before completion. Sure someone can switch an existing wonder they are building to that but the chance of them having more shields than us are slim.

Let me explain... once we make contacts, everybody will expect us to try catching up tech-wise. But we will have no interest in trading for techs, hoping for the Great Library. This would indirectly reveal that we are going for the Great Library even before we would have to switch from the Palace to the actual wonder build. Another thing is everybody or somebody will find out what technologies we are missing, thus learning about our weak points (right now, it would be the lack of IW, for example, HBR etc.), making it posibble to consider hostile actions. With no intel at all, nobody will bother with us, especially if having his own affairs to attend to.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe If we do start building a 2nd wonder in Panama, we can use the GLighthouse as a placeholder. It wouldn't surprise most that we were building it due to our isolation.

Everybody... with the exception of RPers & Luxes, that is, since these two teams know that there is a passage allowing to make contact even without The Great Lighthouse. And RPers are certainly willing to inform others about what they know, aren't they?

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe The real danger would be Great Leaders being used to speed their wonder building and that would happen whether they know that we are building a wonder or not.

Not entirely true. Even if someone gets a GL, he will have to decide how to use him. At this moment, it would be very beneficial for him to know what wonders are currently being built... knowing nothing, he may very well choose to build an army or go for another wonder (like the Great Wall, e.g.). Knowing that we are close to finishing the Great Library, having to let it show up in the F7 screen would be something to consider.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe By sailing west it would take over 30 turns to reach the spot near MercG, Nimitz told me that RP would probably be upset if they found out that we delayed contacting them - We can't afford to have RP turn on us, we have no other potential ally and have Lux coming toward us.

Boldface added. They will never find out. We ain't gonna tell them and they will never be able to figure out for themselves. We told them it would take like 30-35 turns to get to them. If we stick to this, there will be no suspicion - and that we will complete the Great Library few turns before making contact...? Oh, well... the GLib must have been started long before anyway. They will know it was built in Jackson and once they learn where Jackson is, it will only serve our purpose, since they will consider it natural that our wonder building city was unable to build ships... thus leaving the galley build to a city on the other coast, which they will not even spot for many hundred years... once they do, they will be ultimately unable to tell where did the first galley sail from.

Nope, I believe that to keep RPers happy, we need to stick to what we said (actually, it was me, I admit) and make contact once we are done or 1-2 turns from the Great Library opening.

Oh, and btw... we can afford having RPers pissed off at us a little bit, since they need us much more than we need them. We do not seem to have any ND on our continent. We do not seem to need any military help in the near future. Which is not true for them. So, while I would prefer they trust what we say (so that we can talk and make deals), I do not care about how happy they are about us generally (considering chances to win, overall power, tech level etc.).

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe My suggestion would be: go east either now or with our next galley - and delay the start of our Panama wonder by building another galley there or make the galley our first build in Forkmouth and go west from there.

OK, one more time: why would we send our galley to the east? What are we going to explore there? We know there is a crossing there and we know we have to focus on settling that part of our landmass soon, so there is nothing significant we can learn there. For sentry purposes, one surface unit (Gaul) will do...

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe With the counter clockwise exploration strategy and the O2E double wonder, if someone manages to get the GLib before us and we avoid contact, we will have signed our death certificate as I feel we would be putting all of our eggs in one basket with little or no flexibility.

Why should we be dead in that case? If we miss on GLib, it does not really matter if we make contacts 10 turns earlier or not... we will have to give up a lot to catch up tech-wise. OTOH, if we make contacts, trade for techs and then get GLib, we will have wasted a fortune. To reap the benefit of the Great Library, you need to bet on that you will get it. If not, well... it will be rough, but we will make it, switching Jackson to Pyramids and Panama to a 200-shield wonder (see the tables, it will be perfectly timed), spitting its pop out as settlers, quickly grabbing the rest of the landmass, making good use of the Pyramids. We'd have to pay a lot for the techs, that's for sure, but dead? No way.

We would be dead only if someone comes to our continent. But RPers apparently have no need to come here, being pretty busy strenghtening their defenses against the ND juggernaut. ND has neglected seas altogether (they have no coastal city at all - info from Luxes), being busy conquering the Bob continent. GoW is far away and weak and busy trying to survive. Whom should we fear then? Whom could we expect at our doorsteps? Even if someone shows up, we would be able to wipe them out so easily... imagine how many galleys they would need to bring in a decent army... nobody is going to do that.

PLUS, we are likely to have a backup plan, too. If it really ends up with Luxes coming (which it currently seems they will), they will be able to accomodate us on both the contacts and techs, being happy about trades others would never even consider (like a worker force helping them, Merc guarding them and such).

There is a bit of risk involved in this plan, that is for sure. But we are never going to win if we take no risks. And this risk is well calculated, the plan has several backup options and most importantly - even if we ultimately fail, missing on wonders etc., we will still not be dead - we will just have to work harder to catch up.

	24-02-2003 10:50									#8
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I actually have a new suggestion for the galley exploration. Well, more of deviation, so to say. In a pic I have emailed Vondrack, you can see with Sn00py's terrian mod that there is definately coastal lands 2 tiles north-east of the mountain peninsual north of the Sandbox. Whether this is a small island or perhaps a larger one, I think we should consider sending our galley there immediately to scout out the situation. This will only take 5 turns there and back if we still wish to explore to the west. Knowing what is up there could be very benficial, especially if it turns out to be a substantive area. Also, it may have a hut on it, no matter the size. Furthermore, I think it's best that we see it before the Luxes do when they come sailing by sometime in the future. If it's nice lands, wouldn't we like to have a claim on them? Check out the pic, see what I'm talking about...

EDIT by vondrack:

Last edited by vondrack on 24-02-2003 at 12:46

	24-02-2003 12:52									#9
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Zargon, you don't have to send pictures to Vondrack anymore. In the upper menu of your Poly pages, there's an "Upload" link. You can upload your pictures from there, store them on Poly (20 megs max) and then link them in your post.

	24-02-2003 14:29									#10
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Sharpe, I understand your arguements but I still think its best we hold off on contact for a little longer. We aren't going to miss any techs that stop us from REXing and I don't think anyone will be able to put much of an invasion force together even if they wanted to. We have 2 plans, both of which benefit us. I can't see any other civ chasing the GLib as they are most likely doing deals for tech trading and arranging among themselves who will research what. Its the sort of deal we would be doing were we in RP's shoes for example. The Lux plan, benefits us as well as Lux. It gives us an ally close at hand whom I think we can trust as long as we are trustworthy ourselves, and it also gives us a buffer to the west.

I would agree with ZargonX that we should make a small detour to check out the possible land up north, may be something there, may not, but I'd sure as hell like to find out before someone else.

	24-02-2003 19:15									#11
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quote: Zargon, you don't have to send pictures to Vondrack anymore. In the upper menu of your Poly pages, there's an "Upload" link. You can upload your pictures from there, store them on Poly (20 megs max) and then link them in your post.

Well hot damn, I missed that update! That's good to know, and I'm sure Vondrack will appreciate me not constantly sending him my illustrative evidence...

	25-02-2003 07:41									#12
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It looks like an ocean square to me, but then again I am not familiar with Snoopy's graphics.

Might be worth checking out - I am projecting that even sailing around our continent from the west, we would reach our coast near RP's "X" spot 5 or so turns before the GrLib is finished so we might want to kill some more turns.

If it is coast or possible land, could it be that island that GoW was talking about? If so we had better investigate it...