24-02-2003 07:06									#1
	Poll: Take in Trip and all of his money Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

This issue is being informally discussed with Trip by adaMada. While he feels Trip out on this issue, I am going to post the "deal" here, and I need you to vote on if you think this is a good idea or not.

Proposal: We offer to allow any and all Lux Invicta members to join our team. In exchange for having an "open door policy" towards them, they will bring their settler to us, allow it to be captured, giving us slaves which we will (at some point) join to one of our cities, thus symbolicly having them join our nation. They will also give us all of their gold ... so that we can all benefit from having it.

We are inviting them to come join us and live with us in Spain. In the process they are giving us everything they have left.

Do you agree with this proposal or not. It is not official. I need discussion on it.

--Togas

	24-02-2003 07:25									#2
	Remove this text

I don't have a problem, but other players or should I say teams may. The question is will it pass the smell test.

	24-02-2003 07:25									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I would gladly take his money, but not his city (whatever he has left), which would be completely indefensible, unless we could sell it to someone, even ND, for even more money or wondrous new technologies.

	24-02-2003 07:27									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I am Uncertain about bringing them all on to our team. Arnelos & I had discussed it a little while ago and we had come up with about 1/3rd to 1/2 of the Lux team members whom we would like to see on the team. But we were in complete argeement that we would NOT want Trip and a few of his buddies on the team.

I will support a partial Immigration but not a full one. What would prevent one of them from pulling a Sir Ralph on us??

Eta Tamali

	24-02-2003 07:33									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

For those who don't follow such things, please explain 'a Sir Ralph'

	24-02-2003 07:52									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

ISDG, Sir Ralph had joined and after not liking the "style" of the government and desision making, had left to possibly go to the Webring team. This was AFTER we had made our first turns move and were debating several options and plans.

Eta Tamali

	24-02-2003 08:01									#7
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I vote adamently no.

I dont like Trip's style or methods. I dont think he is above leaking information at all, and i think he is exactly what this team doesnt want.

He has nothing to contribute other than gold, and I think we can go without that.

	24-02-2003 08:46									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Well, I guess I should have voted don’t care if people want Trip or don’t want Trip it’s fine with me. I wouldn’t make him our Minister of Deciding Where To Settle, though

	24-02-2003 08:50									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Note: I had a long talk with Trip trying to get him to see that his team was done and that he should seriously think about what he wants to do next. He assured me he had a plan worked out with another team that would keep Lux alive. The details of that plan will come out in time, however this idea won't work. Lux has disbanded their settler and spent most of their cash on said "deal."

Trip did, however, say that he has a worker hidded "North East" of where Madrid Exp. is. He also wants to buy Literature and Writing from us.

I offered him Writing for 60g (discounted because EVERYONE ELSE has it but Lux).

Literature, however, will be much higher. Trip wants to dissapear into obilivion and build the Great Library, I imagine.

--Togas

	24-02-2003 10:46									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

i disagree

i suspect Trip's deal involves him getting techs for the benefactor cheap, cuz Trip isnt a threat and can do such a thing.

Dont give him Lit.

	24-02-2003 14:09									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I desagree

I don't want our play style to be dramatically changed by these refugees.

And I think that it's unfear to the other teams to proceed at this manner.

	24-02-2003 15:02									#12
	Remove this text

Adamantly no.

If because of many of the things that have been said about him in here, if nothing else.

As for else... he's both a security risk and I agree with Ninot concerning his style.

I don't care how much money Lux Invicta has on hand... no amount of GAME money (as in "play money") is worth the REAL Trip joining this team, reading what's been posted about him, and continuing to be here.

	24-02-2003 15:54									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by E_T ISDG, Sir Ralph had joined and after not liking the "style" of the government and desision making, had left to possibly go to the Webring team. This was AFTER we had made our first turns move and were debating several options and plans. Eta Tamali

[ooc]
Really?! I didn't like the constitution there either. I think it sucks and leaves too many things open to be decided by whomeverlikesto. Some few people (possibly incompetent) could just make a deal between one or two others on the same team. I was afraid of it ruining the team spirit, but I didn't bugger off just like that. Performing a a 'Sir Ralph' is a rude thing to do.

To be honest, the 'three consuls idea' was a great idea, and
it will be be even better when the consuls and ministers posts lots of polls+discussions for the long term planning. Anyway, many stupid things can go through there with the current Minister system. The team spirit can also be lost, if those three consuls does not watch out... We need to control them somehow so they can manage to keep all of the team toghether.


The 'El Togaz dictatorship' we got here works much better, mainly because of the good team spirit and the high experience of most of us role-civ-players. As long as we have a dictator who listens to the teamsmates, this is gonna be great and we can win.
There has to be some oppostion though, and as long as it is just providing constructive criticism it will benefit Spain.
Ok, enough political philosophy for me... Sorry, if it bothers you.
[/ooc]

Ok, back to the topic:
I think it could also benefit Spain to take in these refugees since our unemployment is at zero. (thanks to the inventor of the whip)
Just deal some more with their chief, Trip, so that he won't do any fancy-pancy stuff and throw a Sir Ralph at us. Don't let him near our Señoritas either. He is filthy, but can be assimilated.

	24-02-2003 15:59									#14
	Tired of ads?

The subject of refugees has been discussed on the main forum, and I understood that such a solution was rejected. I therefore agree with Astrologix : we cannot ignore what the other teams said on that subject.

It was also said that most of the members of Lux did not participated actively, so we loose not much.

	24-02-2003 16:09									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Trip might look stupid. (by what he did in this game)
The fact is, he is not as stupid as he looks. Even now, he could be plotting something bad. He says he's got a plan.
With us or against us? - It's really up to us.

	24-02-2003 16:33									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

Some of you have reasonable doubts about inviting Lux refugees to come to Spain. This doubts are ok, but they also prevent us from gaining some valuous members. Maybe we should find a compromise solution. Not close doors to them, but neither let them fully involve in the team from day 1. First step would be to explain them how our team works (but not what we are planning to do!) just to make sure that none of them is a "Sir Ralph". Then the willing ones could be admited as members with voice but not vote and as time goes on and they demonstrate that Spain can trust in them give them the nationality and full rights.

	24-02-2003 16:52									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I agree. At least giving them a chance sounds fair. I don't think they will be spies and ruin the game for everyone. That would destroy Trips reputation in the ISDG as well. He is not that stupid...

	24-02-2003 17:35									#18
	Remove this text

I voted yes, but having heard the other views I am now uncertain. Can we trust them? But another question is equally important is there room for them in Spain?

OOC There is a LOT of members on this team already, do we really need any more? Cant we just take the settler and assimilate the workers without the players... OOC

I believe Oliverfa has a good solution, give them voice, not vote, then they can prove themselves over time and eventually join our society as full members if they have shown themselves worthy.
But let it be perfectly clear, we should not now, nor ever be governed by our fears.

	24-02-2003 19:14									#19
	Support Apolyton

Since many people are so strongly and vigorously opposed, I change my vote to No. It appears to me that the No feels more strongly about it than the Yes does, so in a case like that I think it’s better not to force the option down so many reluctant people’s throats. Especially since it’s half the voters!

And this will be my final vote because there are no more options left

	24-02-2003 19:53									#20
	Remove this text

I agree with Señor Oliverfa that a compromise could be possible. I would like to know what kind of money we are talking about though.

	24-02-2003 20:10									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

There is a big problem regarding diplomatic issues: How will the other teams see us?

I mean, If ND and GoW feel bad about Lux and they know that their members are joining us they can imagine paranoic things like "they were promoting Lux aggresive tactics", "Lux worked for them" or "Now that Lux ex-members are part of RP team, they are gonna take revenge"...

We all know that we aren't willing a war with ND for revenge (we are *paceful* people), but for winning the game!

So, the offer is really interesting but we have to take in consideration the serious downsides of that deal.

As conclusion: the important thing is not how the presence of that new members would be managed inside the team (OliverFA proposal seems a good way to go), but how it will affect towards the other teams.

	24-02-2003 23:39									#22
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Fibrizzo We all know that we aren't willing a war with ND for revenge (we are *paceful* people), but for winning the game!

That's true mr. Svensgaard... uh I mean Fibrizzo.
We gotta do'em in really bad and soon if we gonna crush them all together, that's why we need to do nice diplomacy and conspiracy towards them. For now, lets play nice.
And we can perhaps get other allies up north too.

	24-02-2003 23:44									#23
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Comprimise isnt a word Trip uses.

Isn't that very well exampled by the Lux ND war?

Trip wont come here and act like a half member. And i have no dount whats left of Lux is trying to screw us out of many deals of Lit, by asking for it cheap.


Trip cant come here. By extension, we shouldnt take any Lux members.

I am of the current opinion that we should treat Lux as no longer a real team, and as their members(Trip) to be pirates of the earth

Nothing will change my opinion on Trip. He wont worry about getting a bad opinion of himself, cuz he IS smart enough to angle it so whatever bad happens is our fault.

remember his first term as SPDG prez? If we won the war, it was the glory of the warmongers, led by Trip. If we lost? Trip said it very simply... "DIA peaceniks are to blame, not giving us enough troups."

thats what he brings to the team. Nothing honorable, nothing we need.

	24-02-2003 23:54									#24
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I voted "don't care."
Their land consumers can take them into play.
I think they should!

	25-02-2003 01:37									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

I'm pretty much in full agreement with Ninot on this one... my agreement is strengthened by the fact that I don't think the bad blood of Trip coming over here and reading what's been said about him and the potential real consequences makes any in-game benefit worthwhile - period.

	25-02-2003 02:16									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

No way. This is a very bad idea, for reasons cited by many. I sympathize with the Lux members, who never would have guessed they'd be out of the game so early - but then they shouldn't have let Trip run, and ruin, the show for them.

	25-02-2003 02:47									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

How do we know Trip was their unchallenged dicator?
Perhaps they did commit mass suicide?

	25-02-2003 03:18									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat How do we know Trip was their unchallenged dicator? Perhaps they did commit mass suicide?

cuz Trip has said a few times that for a few weeks now.... its been down to 2 or 3 players on Lux

	25-02-2003 03:31									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

You know Trip better than me from the SPDG, so your opinion is more relevant in this issue. However I think that if Trip really acted that way here then he would never receive the full citizenship.

	25-02-2003 03:37									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm going to close up this thread now. I would say that we might revisit this idea later, but after reading some of the very strict opposition, I will very humbly take this offer off the table.

--Togas