25-02-2003 00:05									#1
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I heard here that the armies are wonderfull etc. I never had a chance to use one so I didn't know. Lately I had a leader so was thinking "Let's try". And so I did. Three veteran infantry walking through enemy's territory. Let's try how it works. So I attacked 11 population city, was figting against one vet infantry. Guess what was the result... it was, hmmmm, not very successful for me. In fact I lost my army and the AI's infantry didn't get any shot, not one HP lost!!! Can you imagine that?! I say pretty ****** man !!!!! From now, **** the armies

	25-02-2003 00:16									#2
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Next time you want to attack veteran infantry put three tanks into your army and do some bombardment beforehand. That should produce a better result.

	25-02-2003 00:24									#3
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Infantry are not an attack unit, unless you bombard the hell out of the unit you are going to attack.

6 attack, 10 defense, 1 move. Infantry armies are really, really hard to kill, so I occasionally build them to protect a stack of artillery + attack troops.

Armies are much more useful if you put attackers in them. In the ancient age, I like swordsman armies. In the middle ages, Knight armies and Cavalry armies are very powerful.

In the industrial age, infantry for inpenetrable defense, Tanks as "nutcrackers" for heavily defended AI cities. For really good balance, I've had 3xTank + 1xMech Inf.

But nothing beats the 4x Modern Armor Army.

-Arrian

	25-02-2003 00:25									#4
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By the way, an infantry unit fortified in a size 11 city has a defense of 17.5 against your attack of 6. Them's not good odds.

-Arrian

	25-02-2003 01:20									#5
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In some recent games, I sometimes ended up with more armies than I could use (8-10). An army will often prevent the AI to attack at all, but don't count on it: In another game I lost a couple of infantry armies to hordes of attacking cavallery.

	25-02-2003 01:46									#6
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Arrian is right. The best units use for attack are (in different ages):
Horseman - Knight - Cavalry - Tank - Modern Armour
Also you can use:
Swordsman - Bowman - Longbowman - Medieval Infantry - Guerilla

	25-02-2003 01:54									#7
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Also when I played recently, the AI seemed to think an army of 3 cavalry is to strong to attack unless he has tanks so he won't even attack your army. So you can use the cavalry army to defend weak units, defend other cavalry when on a pillaging resources run, etc. My guess is other armies get this same benefit depending upon the units the AI has. I've never seen the AI attack an army of MI (though usually by that point I have UP)

	25-02-2003 05:48									#8
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I like the army of explorers. Sometime I will try making an army of workers or settlers. I shouldn't work, but if it does, it will be plenty of fun, hehehe...

When attacking infantry in industrial age... Bombard. Bombard like you never bombarded before. Go there, be happy, and make some big black holes on the ground, level the AI's terrain down. And then begin counting pieces of city afterwards.

	25-02-2003 08:59									#9
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I use armies like Arrian and one more thing. They are great to use to sit on a city you just took. I love old calv armies that are now unable to go against MA/MI, but they can sit on that large pop and pacifiy them. The AI often will leave that city alone, it will not come after it with a couple of infantry units. If they come with a real army, send your army.
Do not get mad at the army, it was miss used. A large city is not to be attacked with just anything.

	25-02-2003 13:43									#10
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Yep, someone said "nutcracker" and thats just what the army is. You will not take a city with just one army (at least not as fast as you would like and not until tanks or MA). The army is there to kill that Elite Infantry or Elite MI without you loosing 3 or 4 Cavalry or Tanks. After you get rid of the best defender, single units can ussually do the job.

	25-02-2003 14:05									#11
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Does it make more sense to mix units within an army, or to use a "pure" army with single units or another army to handle defense?

	25-02-2003 16:17									#12
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Does it make more sense to mix units within an army, or to use a "pure" army with single units or another army to handle defense?

I normally use pure armies, but I make both infantry armies for defense and cavallery or tank armies as nutcrackers. Ancient swordsmen armies are well balanced.

	25-02-2003 23:45									#13
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TMM -

I'd say it depends. Theseus, whose opinion I respect, loves mixed unit armies. I typically use "pure" armies of swords, knights, cav, tanks*, and modern armor.

* - as I noted above, I've had 3xTanks and 1xMech Inf armies. That made sense to me because 1) I had just gotten Comps and was a ways from Synth Fibers; and 2) Tanks have a relatively weak defense (8) and adding the Mech Inf dealt with that w/o slowing the army down.

As China, I have formed 2x Rider armies, awaiting Mil Tradition to add a Cavalry for added punch. That way, I still have a "pure" 3-mover force. I think I even added a MA to such an army once.

In my current game, I did make an army with 2 legionaries (one vet, one elite who generated the leader for the army) and 1 vet med inf. I liked the added hitting power of the med inf. leading the charge, but with 9hp of 3-defense backing him up. Once I get the Pentagon, I'm sure I'll add an infantry. I try not to mix slow-movers and mobile units.

I could definitely see a 1xImpi + 2xhorseman army being useful, if one was inclined to play the Zulu. But horseman are most useful in hordes of individual units, and their usefulness pretty much ends with the advent of feudalism. Sure, I keep elite horsemen around to finish off beat up longbowmen and such hoping to get more leaders, but armies don't generate leaders. Therefore, a horseman army has a very limited shelf life. The only shorter one I can think of is an archer army.

Armies are occasionally useful in combat, but the truth is they really aren't that big a boost. Their value, IMO, is limited to allowing construction of the HE to increase you chances of getting leaders, and the "nutcracker" role to help reduce casualties vs. well-defended cities (though artillery is more effective to do that job, you just need a lot of it).

-Arrian

	26-02-2003 01:50									#14
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I do not mix units in an army very often. When I do it will be of necessity. Even then, I would like to at least match speeds. IOW, no 1 move units with 2/3 move units.

	26-02-2003 02:20									#15
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Yeah, I also like to have specific armies - defensive and ofensive...

	26-02-2003 14:53									#16
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Okay -- thanks!

does anyone know if the units in an army contribute to the 4K unit limit, or if the whole thing just counts for one?

	26-02-2003 15:46									#17
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I would think the units in the army all count and the army itself also counts as one. I am basing this on the fact that a three unit army takes up four spaces in a transport.

	26-02-2003 19:11									#18
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That's my understanding as well, considering that if you try to put a 3x knight army in a caravel, it won't fit (3 capacity, army is actually 4). Plus, the F3 screen will list the knights that are in the army amongst your other knights, and the army gets its own entry.

-Arrian

	26-02-2003 21:16									#19
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bombarding works good... but it destroys so much.

its better sometimes to bite the bullet, suffer casualties, just to be able to quickly sweep up a heavy production AI city. Starve off the survivors, or build workers, replenish with your own citizens, and voila, recoup your losses behind enemy lines!

	26-02-2003 22:39									#20
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I like armies as the first attacker of the city.

Mixed army rule - Your army is only as fast as the slowest unit.

	02-03-2003 20:53									#21
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I have a question:
If I´ve loaded som units into an army and, for some reason, I regret it, is there some way to unload them or are they stuck there forever?

	02-03-2003 22:06									#22
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Forever! And ever! They'll be stuck in theeeeree!

At least the units IN the army can improve their hit points gaining promotions. I used to way until I got 3 elite troups to put in an army. Now even regular ones should do the job (not very well).

	02-03-2003 23:37									#23
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With the first army, I will use most anything. I just want to get the first win.
After that I like to wait for Calv and make them with an Elite calv that has already made a leader. This way I get the extra HP and the elite is not going to make another leader anyway and can not be upgraded further.
I may make one army with tanks and take the hit for the elite, but only one.
Once I get to MA, it is back to trying to use a unit that has already made a leader. I will then jam in newly minted vets MA units as I can make as many as I want. The army will have lots HP's and can gain one during a battle. This can be very important for the times the army is beating down to 6-8 HP's. Getting a promo and gaining another HP will make the less vulnerable to a counter attack.
Anyway you can not remove them as a rule. I recall there was a bug that let you do it under some conditions, I think it was patched.

	04-03-2003 01:38									#24
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1. All in all, how many GLs do you produce in a given game?

2. What % of those GLs go towards armies, as opposed to wonders?

3. When do you build your first army? First chance you get, or do you use the GL on something like the FP, etc?

	04-03-2003 01:47									#25
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Q. How many GLs in a game?
A. Totally inappropriate question, because the answer is totally meaningless. Even with a militaristic civ (better Elite unit creation), there may be ZERO Great Leaders -- or there may be 10+!!

Yahweh, basically your 3 questions are VERY situation dependent.

	04-03-2003 02:00									#26
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I understand that. But people around here talk about their armies all the time... I often play as a militaristic civ, and the most I've ever gotten was (I believe) 4 GLs. I didn't use a single one to build an army! I've built one once before just to see what it was like, but I won my wars with masses of normal troops.

I guess I just don't understand how an army can be more useful than rushing a wonder being built in, presumably, one of your most productive cities, which could be producing a top-line attack or defense unit every few turns or so.

That's why I was wondering if you guys were producing more great leaders than me, somehow.

	04-03-2003 02:18									#27
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As already mentioned in this thread and others, an army can make life much easier, whether it's to take out strong defenders without having to wait for bombardment to take effect or to BE a strong defense. Any time avoiding losses is important to you (e.g., warfare in Rep/Dem), having armies is important (well, at least preferable)!

If you do not have a great wonder or FP that needs rushing at the time, it is generally good to create that first Army, have a victorious combat with it & build Heroic Epic to assist in getting more GLs.

If you have not had experience with Armies, you are missing out! And yes, LEARNING how to use them correctly can take a little trial and error.

	04-03-2003 02:34									#28
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Well, next time I'm caught in an ancient-era war, I'll give it a shot, just to get that Heroic Epic.

	04-03-2003 03:05									#29
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I only use 1 army. As soon as I get a hero i make an army, and load the unit that created it, and then attack with it to get the Heroic Epic so that I can get more heroes. I generally keep them as pure armies, and generally for defensive purposes. Once I get the academy it may be neat to have multiple armies, but I can't see the point.

	04-03-2003 03:23									#30
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I used to use my first leader to create an army, just to build the Heroic Epic and increase my chance of further leaders. Now I have edited the military academy to require five barracks, not a victorious army, so I can build armies later in the game anyway. So my first leader usually goes on the forbidden palace.

In my current game, as the Koreans, my first leader went on the FP and my second on Sistine as I managed to build Leo's anyway. It is 1110AD and I am ahead in tech and using knights but have no saltpeter.

Once I get mil. trad. I will build the academy and after industrializing I usually go with four tank armies, later four MA armies, and set about military conquest. I find that number of armies is sufficient to take any city if supported by bombers. I don't bother with defensive armies.