25-02-2003 06:10									#1
	Can we make the TILESET bigger? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

SIZE=3]hmmmmmm......

ok... lets real ...... most people have a computer with:


Pentium III or better
more than 256MB RAM
gforce3 video or higher
17" 1024x768 monitor
and a decent sound card


So why are the MAPS and not the TILES not getting larger?

With Microsoft coming out with its own civ sim, a lot of age of empires junkies are going to cross over, and if Civ 4 has a larger, more detailed tileset (say 3x's bigger? 2ice as detailed?) the market will stay yours!

also:

a "lite" version to be marketed along side/with this one. It would be a traditional CD-ROM

I definitely would like Civ4 to be a DVD-ROM. That way detailed "battle simulation" movies could be added (and the added attention to the tileset won't be sacrificed by space)

camera contol menu: with a 3X 180 X 180 tileset zooming in the map and minimap becomes imperative! I'd to be able to pan around a "virtual dome", too.[/SIZE]

Please GIVE FEEDBACK!!!!!! ANYTHING.......EVEN FLAMING FOR ALL I CARE!!!!!!!!

	25-02-2003 16:39									#2
	Suffering from ads?

You don't need geforce or any other 3d monster to play civ.

	25-02-2003 17:34									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

What I'd like is a larger map. Huuuge. 1000x1000. And the road/railway concept looks bad and doesnt feel right.

ps. I'm a freak... I know.

	25-02-2003 20:36									#4
	Put an end to popups!

I'd love to see tiles go bye-bye altogether, and be replaced by a spherical map, with locations defined by lattitude and longitude.

Computers have advanced to the point that there is no good excuse for the cylindrical map in a game that's suppossed to represent the world.

	25-02-2003 20:53									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Daz What I'd like is a larger map. Huuuge. 1000x1000. And the road/railway concept looks bad and doesnt feel right. ps. I'm a freak... I know.

1000x1000 gooooood.

I became a very happy camper when I realized the 10K total tile maps had given way to 131K tile maps; 1,000K tile maps (megamaps?) would be astounding.

	25-02-2003 20:56									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Of course, we'd better have access to 16K cities and 128K units by then...

	25-02-2003 22:15									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

And it would take several lifetimes to complete a game....

* Grandfather with grandchild on his knee: *
" ooh, I remember when I was still a wee little lad, I settled our first city.
Now it's your turn () son, to take over and continiue the family tradition and enter into the midevil age"

	25-02-2003 22:29									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Of course, we'd better have access to 16K cities and 128K units by then...

with 15.9K cities producing 1 shield/turn due to extreme corruption.

	25-02-2003 22:38									#9
	Put an end to popups!

There are technical reasons why having 1000x1000 maps is not wonderfully feasible, but its not an issue from a graphics viewpoint:

In a system like this, you use a D3D viewport instead of a view of a single DxDraw plane.

You only calculate, and draw the view that you can see on the screen. Scaling, and fog of war is also a snap; D3D has very mature texture scaling and lighting functionality. I'm leaning towards using D3D in the creation of 'Catapult' for this very reason.

"So what IS the problem with 1000x1000 maps?" you might ask.

For one thing, storage requirement. You need to maintain various layers of basic information about a map tile: terrain type, ownership, improvements, 'contents' and many other game state values. You also need to store per player visibility and fow at least, and maybe action maps... among other things. This can add up to a relative lot of information.

If you could manage all this information in 8 bytes (unlikely) then you'd have 8 meg game saves. Huffman encoding might help... but you might only do as well as, 50% compression with that method.

The other problem is pathfinding and the AI in general. The algorithms don't scale massively well. You can create 'helper maps' to assist the AI in point-point range finding, but at these scales it's unviable, since the map would be (1000x1000)^2=1x10^12=an English Billion or an American Trillion.

It is possible to find workarounds, but many of the workarounds will be brute force efforts, requiring serious CPU requirements.

MrBaggins

	26-02-2003 16:30									#10
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by minke19104 with 15.9K cities producing 1 shield/turn due to extreme corruption.

No, we would need that many cities to insure that all 320 civs would have a decent number...

	27-02-2003 14:41									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

yo... who said you had to settle the whole darn planet on a 1000x1000 map? Why not have uninhabited land?

Lets say there is a big desert. Of course nobody's building there. Not until oil comes into play...

No railway movement cost is not a good thing.

Oh.. and it would be nice not to be able to build roads on mountains (maybe desert). It would make trade more interesting and there could me more bottlenecks which would be fiercely contested and *slaps himself a couple of times*..... sorry, i digress. Got carried away.

	27-02-2003 17:35									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Bobbiac (...)ok... lets real ...... most people have a computer with: Pentium III or better more than 256MB RAM gforce3 video or higher 17" 1024x768 monitor and a decent sound card (...)

(In sound) Dre-e-e-eam, dream, dream, dream, dream(no-longer singing) If I could have that kind of computer... (Yet, you said MOST people...)

	27-02-2003 22:41									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Then your not most people and neither am i. I cant see the point of bigger tiles, maybe for more detail but id spend most of the time zoomed out to watch over my empire anyway.

	01-03-2003 02:07									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

$399.99
+ tax & shipping




eView 17s [$209.99] - 16" Viewable area, 0.27mm dot pitch, Plug & Play, Non-glare screen



$100 Rebate!
Add an eView monitor to your order and we'll give you back $100!

Want to burn your own CDs and watch DVDs on your PC? Take a look at our T2042.

Not that I have any simpathy for E-mahines, but..

	01-03-2003 13:02									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Daz yo... who said you had to settle the whole darn planet on a 1000x1000 map? Why not have uninhabited land? Lets say there is a big desert. Of course nobody's building there. Not until oil comes into play... No railway movement cost is not a good thing. Oh.. and it would be nice not to be able to build roads on mountains (maybe desert). It would make trade more interesting and there could me more bottlenecks which would be fiercely contested and *slaps himself a couple of times*..... sorry, i digress. Got carried away.

It would also make mountain-based strategic and luxury resources utterly pointless.

	01-03-2003 13:03									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

BTW...I modded mountain cities back in...

	01-03-2003 16:19									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: BTW...I modded mountain cities back in...

Ah! That must feel soooo good. Specially when those bastards DOWN THERE try to reach UP HERE. The poor sobs won't feel the rocks rolling on them...

Also: U$500,oo + tax/shípping is a lot down here . Those computer monsters ARE a dream! They can't be real! WHY GOD?? WHYYYY????

	01-03-2003 17:44									#18
	Increase Your PM Length

Hate to break the news to you, pedrojedi, but that is about the lowest end new computer you can buy in the USA.

Look at this if you want to see something that I wish I had the spare $$$ for:

Attachment: alien.gif
This has been downloaded 27 time(s).

	01-03-2003 18:05									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Lime green ukes: Build it yourself or at least specify the parts you want, youll save a bundle. Chrome with blue neon lighting and water cooling :drools:

	01-03-2003 18:40									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Bobbiac $399.99 + tax & shipping eView 17s [$209.99] - 16" Viewable area, 0.27mm dot pitch, Plug & Play, Non-glare screen $100 Rebate! Add an eView monitor to your order and we'll give you back $100! Want to burn your own CDs and watch DVDs on your PC? Take a look at our T2042. Not that I have any simpathy for E-mahines, but..

Listen ass! You try living under the provted litim why still trying to have a insters for Video/computer games! (no, its not the check cards that killing us, and its not payment to the a new car or vanction...)

	01-03-2003 19:31									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Hate to break the news to you, pedrojedi, but that is about the lowest end new computer you can buy in the USA

And that's why I said "down here". The flag over there is actually the place where I live. The trade between dollar/Real (yeah, our money's name) is roughly U$ 1 = R$ 3,56 right now, with constant shiftings due to our tremendously dependant outcome investment economy. So, any crisis and conflict (which includes this Iraq *&$%$ situation) has a bad effect on our stock exchanges.

There was a time our money had more value... it was so long ago...

So, taking the short track: even though that's the minimal in US, it is still too much for us in Brasil.

PS: we have here such computers, and people who are buying their machines by now are getting that one, with some modifications - a less powerful or onboard (ick :tongue video card, less RAM, regular CDR. The best we have, but only the one who wants to spare money have.

PS2: There's always good machines in Paraguay markets. Better, much better prices, but the quality...