25-02-2003 11:14									#1
	What do you do with your first leader? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Hola,

I'm sure a thread like this has already been done but I was just curious to see what you people have to say about this since many people have very different views on what to do with the first leader.

Personally, I build the Forbidden Palace. Since you get your first leader usually during your first war of expansion, you want those extra cities to actually be able to produce something, corruption can really make conquest rather worthless in an economic sense.

Only if I am involved in a MAJOR war do I build an Army first.

	25-02-2003 12:03									#2
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I always try to snage the Great Libarary with my first leader, if it comes early enough. Otherwise, it's whatever wonder I think that all of the AI's have dedicated hundreds of shields to that I could really use. Pyramids on AU mod, any Middle Age happiness wonders that are up for grabs. I'll buy any tech at any price if it lets me rush build a really good wonder.

If I do a huge palace relocation it usually comes in a major conquest game, and that's always timed for me for a second or third leader (the first comes when I'm too small to move the palace, and corruption is low enough to manually build the FP.)

	25-02-2003 12:29									#3
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Depends on the current situation. Mostly I've used it to build Forbidden palace or a decent wonder: Great Library, Great lighthouse (especially on an island map), ect.

	25-02-2003 15:48									#4
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I'll take the army.

	25-02-2003 19:14									#5
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FP or Palace move, depending on the situation. That is the highest priority by a mile.

I can't vote for both, so I voted Palace move.

-Arrian

	25-02-2003 19:58									#6
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My Palace always seems to be a little off position for best placement. So I usually build the FP a city over asap. I usually Palace jump asap too. Since my culture is usually quite poor I run a larger risk of my FP flipping.

I have to 2nd Arrian, FP/Palace is the highest priority in all my games.

	25-02-2003 20:28									#7
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If it's really early, I always build the Pyramids. This has happened to me twice, and those games were a breeze.

If I've still not yet conquered much land, I'll often build an Army (always if Militaristic). I'm convinced the payoff is there, and it makes the game more fun.

If the two cases above do not apply, I'll rush the FP/Palance, depending on the local geography.


Dominae

	25-02-2003 20:46									#8
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Dominae,

Early leader goes for the Pyramids? Interesting, considering your results using one to build the FP in the "Strategic Choice" game (I bumped the thread, since it is relevent).

-Arrian

	25-02-2003 21:11									#9
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Arrian, I offered to test the FP! On that map...I'm not sure which would be better (Pyramids or FP). I remember my conclusion that the FP would be best, but I'm now trying to remember why...

These days, I give the nod to the Pyramids, if the Leader comes during an Archer rush or some other ridiculously early time.


Dominae

	25-02-2003 21:20									#10
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Interesting. I've drawn the opposite conclusion, in part based upon the "Strategic Choice" game. I just hold the leader and beeline for the city I want my FP (or palace move) in. I try to hold elites out of combat if possible during that time, to prevent losses and train up my vets.

Getting a second core up and running ASAP seems to be more powerful than free granaries everywhere. True, it's best to get both (and sometimes, if you're on a large continent with lots of neighbors, you have a decent shot at capturing the Pyramids from the AI, thus removing the choice).

-Arrian

	25-02-2003 21:29									#11
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Capturing the Pyramids is completely different from getting it with an early Leader: you'll probably not be REXing much by the time the AI finishes the Wonder and you've conquered it.

A Granary-enabled expansion phase is really really good. By "ultra-early", I mean that you have not expanded far enough (and conquered far enough...) for the a good FP site to be available. You would have to rush your FP in a site that's completely isolated. In 'A Strategic Choice', there were many many turns where the FP and the land around it were not that productive, in spite of reduced Corruption. I feel that I could have done better economically with the Pyramids. The next war would hopefully produce the FP Leader (never count on it though!).


Dominae

	25-02-2003 21:57									#12
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That's just it. You cannot count on that 2nd leader. I've done it, and then regretted it.

Second, with respect to the Pyramids for REXing... well, I concede that it would greatly boost your REX phase. However, there is still a lot of use to be gotten from the Pyramids if you capture them after the REX period. City growth from size 7 to 12 has a larger food box, but there is no RR to boost the power of irrigated tiles. The Pyramids will get your cities up to size 12 quickly and, of course, for free. Second, after building hospitals, you get another round of free 2x growth, meaning you don't need to lower production much (by irrigating over mines) to acheive a decent growth rate up from size 13.

I suppose I see that later benifit more since I use wider city spacing and end up with cities in the 18 - 25 pop range.

-Arrian

	26-02-2003 00:03									#13
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But that's just it! I'm not counting on a second Leader, I'm taking matters into my own hands and ensuring a super-strong early-game. A FP at the time of the game I'm considering is not as good as the Pyramids, IMO. Eventually, will a lot of work, the FP obviously becomes better, but I'm talking about tempo.

And I think you misunderstood be about the Pyramids. I'm not against capturing them, they obviously have benefits well past the expansion phase. My point was that their benefit during the expansion phase is great enough that I would rather get it myself (via Leader) than wait to capture it.


Dominae

	26-02-2003 00:10									#14
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1st Leader: Great Library. If I already have the library, then I build an army specifically to be able to build the heroic epic and generate more leaders.

	26-02-2003 00:27									#15
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Dominae,

I understood what you meant regarding the Pyramids. I was just trying to explain why I would rather use the leader on a FP/Palace move and hope to capture the Pyramids later.

You are willing to use up the leader for the Pyramids and accept the possibility that you may not get another leader for the FP/Palace move, because the Pyramids provides such an immediate power boost, not to mention a long-term benifit.

I am willing to use up the leader for the FP/Palace move and accept that I may not capture the Pyramids (on my continent, anyway) later or get a leader in time to rush the Pyramids myself, because an early second core of cities provides such an early power boost, not to mention long-term benifit.

You think the Pyramids extremely early beats out a FP/Palace move somewhat later. Hmm.

The most powerful games I've played have been the ones with early, well-placed FPs or Palace moves. The most powerful of those games were the ones where I captured the Pyramids on my continent.

I guess what this really comes down to is what you think is REALLY early. 1025bc, like in "Strategic Choice?" Earlier? I re-read the "Strategic Choice" thread and I think it is very clear that your game (FP) was stronger than mine (Pyramids).

-Arrian

	26-02-2003 00:34									#16
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I have built the Pyramids once with an early leader and that game didn't end up being very successful. Ever since I rather spend my leaders on FP's.
The extra granaries are nice but I usually build 90% of my settlers in a single city (most of the times my capitol) which almost always has granaries by then.
The other cities grow fast enough and even if they don't, the benefit of a FP is greater.

Early Pyramids are awesome but an early FP might be better IMHO.

If I don't have a good spot for a FP yet I will produce an army hoping for the effects of the Heroic Epic.

	26-02-2003 00:37									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

Well, it's nothing more than a feeling Arrian, since I have a total of 2 games-worth of experience in the matter. A part of it is that I like economic challenge of having all my cities grow twice as fast; reduced Corruption due to FP is just there.

Funny, I thought our games were quite similar. Perhaps I was little more powerful, but not by a huge margin.

And, by the way, did you notice my city spacing? That was before I made the switch to 3-tile! It just looks funny to me now (yet somehow attractive and beautiful).


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 26-02-2003 at 05:52

	26-02-2003 02:00									#18
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Dominae,

Yes, I noticed the city spacing. I was looking at your screenshots and thinking "hey! that looks like one of MY empires! Look at all of those nice, wide-spaced cities!"

-Arrian

	26-02-2003 03:28									#19
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My normal GL use is not on the list. I have never gotten a GL prior to the modern age, using Modern Armor. I don't know how the rest of you do it? So I use mine to build my Spacship. Many times I have build almost the entire ship with GL's they come out of the bushes during my modern age domestic conversion project (world domination).

	26-02-2003 03:45									#20
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For me, I usually build the FP in a city close to the capital and palace jump later, so if the leader comes real early, he often gets used for an army for the heroic epic. But that's if I'm playing a militaristic civ which can get oodles of leaders. If I'm not militaristic, palace jump or wonder and sometimes army. I love armies in war.

I'll build a wonder if one is available that I haven't pre-built and I want, but I usually build the wonders I want from scratch.

So for me it really depends. I rarely get the "early" leader. My last game's "first" leader happened during the middle ages where I wanted a palace move. I knew I wouldn't be warring much more so an army would have been pointless.

	26-02-2003 03:55									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

What a timely thread.

Emperor level. It's about 440 BC. I am the celts. I have about 8 cities. I know that seems small but I am doing good since I have conquered england, got the great library from them. Then got 3 cities from the english in peace treaty. I had toi disband since barbarian uprisings happened outside each one and they were crappy sities with no defenders so it would have cost me too much..and I need the $$ for GS upgrades.

I am on large contenent anf the russians are on the other side..we are seperated by steepes in the middle about 20 squares apart give or take. It takes my GS's about 5-6 turns to reach the russian frontier border edge cities. I am at war with russians and want to hurt them bad. They have about 9 cities atm and are my other major rival on the continent.

Now I just got my leader at this time too.

So I can do one of a few things with my GL.

1. take a settler..go out about 14 tiles away from my capital on those steppes and found a city right in the middle and then immedietly build the FP in it with my leader. Then found new cities around this area and make it my second core.

or

go about 8 tiles to the south and build the fp in london..it would be closer but more immediete.

2. Get monarchy in about 5 more turns, then immedietly build the hanging gardens with my GL.

3. trade currency to the germans then they get monotheism..(russians already have it then I get it from GL)..then I immedietly research the tech for sistine chapel (.forgot name I am drawing a blank it comes after monotheism). Then in 30 turns when I get that tech use the GL to rush sistene.

4. Build an army. I have 2 elite swordsmen. and 4 vet swords..plus more on the way. I just lost 4 in some real bad rolls.

	26-02-2003 05:48									#22
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It depends. If I have the perfect spot for my FP, i will build it ASAP with my leader. Otherwise, I would get a good wonder, either the GL or Sun Tzu if it is that late...

--Kon--

	26-02-2003 06:06									#23
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Definitely not 3.

I'd say 1 or 4, depending on how much fighting you plan to do this game. If you choose the first part of 1, you better keep it defended.

	26-02-2003 13:24									#24
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hmm so you like sun tzu even for militaristic civ like celts? mainly for denial purposes I suppose?

	26-02-2003 15:53									#25
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I vote for a Wonder.

I usually don't get a lot of leaders, because I am always very peaceful. Once I have have enough space, or don't have some special reason, I am not attacking. I usually make an archer rush early to have space to expand or kick out someone out of my continent.

When I get a leader I build a wonder immedietly. A build a wonder in a weak city, that has a bad production, while the productive cities are on good way to finish another wonder. Usually there is no need in productive cities to hurry a wonder.

I never hurry a FP, because I have another strategy to finish it asap. In the city I choose to place the FP, I build (or buy) courthouse -> aqueduct -> FP, while joining a few settlers into the city (until there is still an civil order). These cities build a FP in approximetly 40 turns.

Since I am a quite peaceful, I don't really see the use of an Army. Reason for me for building an Army can be a preparation for war/aggression.

I don't really like to move my palace. I tried it a few times on the same map/game (loaded a few times from the beginning) and I was not really satisfied. I played Earth, having a strating location in "New York" - coastal city. I conquerred the whole American continent and moved my palace to "Texas" (or a bit above, to the geometrical middle of North America). The result was almost nothing, but having more corruption in "New York". BTW I built my FP on the geomertical middle of South America. Nice empire .

When left the palace in New York, I did not recognised that my cities on the west coast (from California to Alaska) had more corruption than when I moved my Palace. Interesting.

cheers

cumi

	26-02-2003 15:56									#26
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What I do with my first GL depends entirely on situation. If I haven't conquered much, or I got my leader from an archer/warrior rush, I'll build an army purely to be able to get the Heroic Epic.

If I've already conquered most of the continent, I'll use it to rush the Forbidden Palace.

If the race for a must-have wonder (eg. Sistine Chapel, Leo's Workshop, Smith's Trading Company) is way too close, or I have absolutely no chance of building it the conventional way, I'll rush it.

	26-02-2003 15:56									#27
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are courthouses the only buildings that help with corruption?

	26-02-2003 19:22									#28
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Police stations do too, but they come much later, obviously.

"We love the King Day" also reduces shield waste, so in a way, happiness buildings and luxuries can be viewed as corruption-fighters.

-Arrian

	26-02-2003 21:56									#29
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Well Just got my 2nd leader it is 290 AD. Germany owns half of my continent and I am doing a mop up with russia.

My age of domination is over I think as fuedalism has been discovered and my GS units have been rendered more or less obsolete by pikemen.

I conquered half of my continent with them. Now I occupy half and a powerful germany occupies the other half. If I go to war with germany I guess I am going to have to use knights.

I wonder if I should upgrade MY GS units to medieval infantry..

My first leader I made an army out of gallic swordsmen. Then I promptly built the heroic epic.

Across the seas china is my rival..they are pretty powerful.

Now I can do one of 4 things with this leader.

1. Build the hanging Gardens before the other powers beat me too it.

2. Build Sun Tzu's

3. In 15 turns build Sistine Chapel after I discover the necessery tech.

4. Build my forbidden palace on the steppe area in the middle of continent around former russian territory. I still haven't built it and it is getting kinda late actually.

	26-02-2003 22:03									#30
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Get that FP down. NOW. Time's a-wasting!

By the way, feudalism doesn't make the GS totally obselete. Particularly if you have a lot of them. But against a strong foe, like the Germany you describe, yeah, it sounds like it's time to settle down and build for a bit. Hence, the FP!

-Arrian