25-02-2003 14:52									#1
	my theory on christianity Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Let me preface this by saying that I am a Christian, a baptist to be more specific, and my views may surprise some of you.

Over the last few years, my ideology has changed a great deal. I grew up in a southern baptist church, with southern baptist parents, and i believed what i was told. And then problems arose in me that i had seen so many other times. I came to college and was assualted with things that challenged my world view, and my religion.

And it made me realize something. Most people lose (or never gain) faith for one of two reasons:
1) A traumatic experience
2) Contradictions in the bible, and from the outside world

Now, the first is common. People lose a loved one, or even see something on TV and think how could this happen if there is a God and he is good?

This is the easiest and the most straight forward to address. It is simply a problem of scope, or perception. God, by definition, is omnipotent and omniscient. We, on the otherhand, live infinitely short lives by comparison. When we see something tragic, it is only tragic from our point of view, and the view points of those like us. For one to assume that he can decide an event is good or bad over an (near enough) infinite timeline is folly. Only a "God" would have such capabilities. (the following point is not for debate, merely provided as a hypothetical example) The WTC attack was a tragic event, but if that triggered a chain of events that causes us to go to war with iraq, and prevent what could be a catastrophic event, then it was for the good of mankind. When referring to good, i mean it in the utilitarian sense, the most good for the most people. It would be hard to image a "God" that is only good for the few.


As for the second, we must talk about the bible. Suppose our bible is a book that is a translation of a translation of a translation of a work that was inspired by god and written by man. Language is going to play a major role here. I think it is quite apparent to anyone that translations often cannot carry the original meaning. Sometimes there just aren't words available for a precise conversion. And it is also easy to see that copies produce errors. Thus, one can see why there may be contridictions in the bible, even though it is a work inspired by god. Errors tend to propogate themselves in repeated translating and copying. While this is true for mankind, it is also true for the divine-mortal conversion. I do believe that the bible was an inspired work. I also believe that it is possible that we don't have the entire "bible." As an inspired work, it would have much the same problem as a translation. Words cannot express all the images in our heads, much less those placed there by a "God." One would use the words they have available to describe situations they do not fully understand.


Now what could that mean? The bible is worthless? christianity is pointless?

I think the answer to both is NO. I do not believe much of what is in the bible is true. I don't believe in the creation story, i don't believe in all the parables, and i don't believe an "Omnipotent" God can change over the years (as from the old to new testaments). I believe people described their inspirations as best they could with the language they had available. But that doesn't make anything true.

now the kicker
You don't have to believe in the bible word for word to be a good christian. You don't have to believe any of it (save that there is a God, and that Christ died for your sins, and was resurrected) is historically accurate.
I believe the bible is a guidebook. It provides lessons for living a moral life that is pleasing to God. It doesn't have to be true, that isn't it's purpose. That said, contradictions don't matter. Fossils don't matter, evolution doesn't matter, etc. I can believe in all of those things, because they are completely irrelevant to faith.

	25-02-2003 14:56									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

OK here is my view. This is going to get me flamed

but I do believe Jesus Christ existed. And I do believe symbolically he died for our sins.

That is all. The rest are just good and not so good stories

	25-02-2003 14:59									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Well then some Christians would come out saying you're very wrong and misguided. Soon thereafter other christians would come out saying that those christians are wrong and that you're views are valid and worth discussion, regardless if they might be right or wrong. And another group of christians would come out saying you all are right in the eyes of the lord. Blessed be, blessed be.

Be proud to be Human before anything else. Let God sort out the rest of it...

	25-02-2003 15:00									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: From a distance The world looks blue and green And the snow capped mountains white From a distance The ocean meets the stream And the eagle takes to flight From a distance There is harmony And it echoes through the land Its the voice of hope Its the voice of peace Its the voice of every man From a distance We all have enough And no one is in need And there are no guns, no bombs and no disease No hungry mouths to feed From a Distance We are instruments Marching in a common band Playing songs of hope Playing songs of peace They are the songs of every man God is watching us God is watching us God is watching us From a distance From a distance You look like my friend Even though we are at war From a distance I just cannot comprehend What all this fightings for From a distance There is harmony And it echoes through the land And its the hope of hopes Its the love of loves Its the heart of every man God is watching us God is watching us God is watching us From a distance God is watching us God is watching us God is watching us From a distance

No offense intended to God, but I don't think he pays much attention to me. Or people in general, for that matter. But I'm ok with that. We should be responsible enough to deal with our problems on our own. We should be responsible enough to deal with our problems on our own.

	25-02-2003 15:04									#5
	Suffering from ads?

again, all that is from a very narrow perspective. We cannot possible hope to know what is for the greater good...And Drose, another great thing about my theory is that it is help with the knowledge that few, including other christians will agree with me...but that's just because people are sheep when they lose faith, i'll still have mine

	25-02-2003 15:08									#6
	Re: my theory on christianity Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Kaak [b]And it made me realize something. Most people lose (or never gain) faith for one of two reasons: 1) A traumatic experience

My experience is just the opposite. A number of people I know became religious after a traumatic experience, ranging from the loss of a loved one to physical disabilities.

	25-02-2003 15:13									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The way I look at it:

Assumption 1: There is a singular God. Can take any number of form(s) he/she/it pleases or needs to suit the needs of creation.

Assumption 2: God set the universe in motion; the Big Bang.

Assumption 3: God, being omnipotent, can do anything God damn well pleases...but chooses not to actively fukkerup the gears of the universe. A mircle here and there, maybe, but large watches us "from a distance." (<-God how I hate that song...)

Assumption 4: God, being omnipotent, allowed the evolution of free-willed brains in our skulls.

Conclusion: If God wanted mindless worshipers, God would make them. God didn't. God granted us the gift of a thinking mind and God probably doesn't want us squandering it. You gotta brain...USE IT!!!

I have a more fleshed-out spiritual philosophy (seperate from my living philosophy) but I don't care to go into its details here.

	25-02-2003 15:28									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The bible: Is it a good book?- yes it is. Is it true?- do we care? It is a book that tells us good from bad, a manual for life. Even if it's fiction, it still doesnt mean it gives us the wrong messages.

Christianity: I dont believe in the institutionalization (spelling?) of religion. It is too often abused to be Gods plan. This is of course my point of view. I try to live by the guidelines set by the bible and dont think of myself a lesser christian than those who attend church.



my 2 cents (just realized this applies to the EU now too, or should I say 2 eurocents?)

	25-02-2003 16:20									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well, I believe there was some historical figure that became the basis for the whole Jesus story, and he was put to death for crimes against the Roman Empire.

Beyond that, everything's embellished.

	25-02-2003 17:36									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Christianity is based on the bible, so if you don't believe the bible, then you aren't really Christian. That's just my two cents.

Religion is created by humans. Plain and simple. Whether or not there is a deity out there, I don't know. We should explore our world, our universe, and find out rather than trust the writings of fanatics from two thousand years ago.

	25-02-2003 17:40									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

my experience is different too: people are religious because they are spoon fed it their whole lives and by nature, humans hate change.

	25-02-2003 18:46									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

dm,

I'm not the most religious person around, or the "best Christian" (whatever that means), but I DO know that there are numerous stories of atheists converting to Christianity, and of people of various other religions converting as well. These people would say they converted because they wanted to know the truth, and God revealed it to them.

Now, I can't say God reveals much to me, and I don't know any of these people personally, so take that with a grain of salt - that's just what many people will say.

	25-02-2003 18:53									#13
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by devilmunchkin my experience is different too: people are religious because they are spoon fed it their whole lives and by nature, humans hate change.

I would agree with this.

	25-02-2003 21:18									#14
	Got spare money?

quote: Even if it's fiction, it still doesnt mean it gives us the wrong messages.

Yes, how would I ever know that its a good idea to break the heads of my enemeys' babies against rock if it wasn't for the bible?

That was a little low, but it always confuses me why anyone thinks that the Bible gives an especially interesting, insightful or origonal take on moralty, I'd take the chuang-tze over it any day

	25-02-2003 21:30									#15
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I stop believing in God because it is truly stupid to guide your actions by faith-based beliefs.

People are weird. People who believe intensely are more likely to make a clean break with their religions instead of going on Christmas and Easter or something and saying, I'm sort of Catholic or whatever.

In other news, the Mormons must have spies or something because after not being a member for over two years, at least five address changes including one across a stateline, and a marriage resulting in the changing of my name, the local ward has been sending me letters asking why I'm not at church and someone stops by at least once every two days (I decided to stop opening the door. They're not invited, and I think we made it clear that they're not welcome. I have no obligation to be polite) I should probably go through formal excommunication proceedings, but that would be like legitimizing the whole process. If I say leave me alone, leave me alone.

	25-02-2003 22:03									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Most people, I think, don't believe in the Bible and Christian dogma in a very literal sense. But unfortunately, there isn't an organized religious or social institution of people who think there is a higher power, but don't know what it is. "We'renotsurism" doesn't exist. So people flock to churches of organized religion just out of habit. **note this is most people... not all, so don't reply to this saying "blah blah I go to church and I believe blah blah"... my statements never apply to every single person on the planet.

	25-02-2003 22:07									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I'm not the most religious person around, or the "best Christian" (whatever that means), but I DO know that there are numerous stories of atheists converting to Christianity, and of people of various other religions converting as well.

Sure, it happens both ways. Personally, I know a few atheists who renounced Christianity after growing up as a Christian.

You remember connorkimbro, right?

	25-02-2003 22:10									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: You don't have to believe in the bible word for word to be a good christian. You don't have to believe any of it (save that there is a God, and that Christ died for your sins, and was resurrected) is historically accurate.

You don't have to believe in christianity to live a "christian life". Yes it is a good guide book, but so are many other books out there that preach similar dogmas. Religious beliefs lead to religious practices, yet not all religious practices stem from s religious belief.

quote: But unfortunately, there isn't an organized religious or social institution of people who think there is a higher power, but don't know what it is.

Ever hear of deism?

	25-02-2003 22:19									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Sure, it happens both ways. Personally, I know a few atheists who renounced Christianity after growing up as a Christian. You remember connorkimbro, right?

I take responsibility for that.

	25-02-2003 22:28									#20
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by tandeetaylor I take responsibility for that.

Well what do you know?

	25-02-2003 22:51									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

active, participating God in the world, based on any of the world religions, it is irrelevent which:

deist, clockmaker God: maybe

no God: maybe

agnostic:

	25-02-2003 22:51									#22
	Get a bigger avatar today!

For a long time now, I had renounced the Catholic religion I was raised in, but now I'm considering becoming actively faithful again as an Episcopalian.

	25-02-2003 22:53									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

:d:

Jon Miller

	26-02-2003 04:59									#24
	Support Apolyton

Away for a day, and this is what I miss?

Kaak:

I think I can help you answer some of your questions.
But there are two things I need to know first.

1. Do you believe in the existence of a God who works miracles in this world?

2. Do you believe in Christ's death and resurrection as a historical event?

This will really help me to get a fix on your worldview.

[Edited for unintended double entendre]

Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 26-02-2003 at 05:05

	26-02-2003 13:25									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: You don't have to believe in the bible word for word to be a good christian. You don't have to believe any of it (save that there is a God, and that Christ died for your sins, and was resurrected) is historically accurate. I believe the bible is a guidebook. It provides lessons for living a moral life that is pleasing to God. It doesn't have to be true, that isn't it's purpose. That said, contradictions don't matter. Fossils don't matter, evolution doesn't matter, etc. I can believe in all of those things, because they are completely irrelevant to faith.

To the letter of your text: I agree with that.
That said I must add that I believe the bible completely though.

But indeed, it doesn't matter if you believe that the fish eated Jonas or not.
It doesn't matter if you believe that God created heaven and earth in 6 seconds, 6 days, 6 billions of years or completely independant to time.

You nailed it right down to say that the most important part is that you believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins.

That's not because I believe so, but because the bible several times repeats that.

	26-02-2003 13:28									#26
	Re: Re: my theory on christianity Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger My experience is just the opposite. A number of people I know became religious after a traumatic experience, ranging from the loss of a loved one to physical disabilities.

yeah, I think both things happen.
Traumatic experiences might change someone's view of life very often.
For sure if they never thought something traumatic would happen to them, ie. non-christians who believe that life is all good may be shocked and become christians.

christians who think that nothing will harm them and God will save them for all pain may become atheists.

	26-02-2003 13:33									#27
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by devilmunchkin my experience is different too: people are religious because they are spoon fed it their whole lives and by nature, humans hate change.

that's oftenly the case indeed.
Though be aware that christianity is about personal faith, not the faith of your parents.

Besides that, same counts for atheism, much people don't believe in a god because they are spoon fed it.

Note that there are many people as well who did change though.
That people are spoon fed it doesn't make it less true.
But I think everyone should be honest to himself and wonder if you believe what you believe because you're spoon fed, or because you really thought about it.

quote: Boshko: That was a little low, but it always confuses me why anyone thinks that the Bible gives an especially interesting, insightful or origonal take on moralty, I'd take the chuang-tze over it any day

I agree with you that the bible is not a moral-values container. Eventhough much people take it that way.