25-02-2003 15:11									#1
	Trading luxuries... Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This is what happens:

The higher my score is, the more impossible it gets to trade. In my recent game i have double the score that France and they will not accept the following offer:

Their furs for my dyes, gems, spices and ivory. Doesn't the AI know that this is a great deal?



I know that I could afford to pay more, but nevertheless it is an offer that should not be rejected. Maybe its because I CAN afford more...?

	25-02-2003 15:33									#2
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Yes, that's exactly it.

	25-02-2003 16:30									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

But thats just silly. I mean, here I go offering 4 luxuries for 1 and they reject it? Shouldn't the benefits outweigh the principle?

I dont get that much with the deal, since I already have 4 luxuries. So I'm not actually depending on the deal. They, on the other hand, would get a huuuge hapiness boost by the deal. So me being rich shouldn't have anything to do with it.

	25-02-2003 16:37									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Isn't this based on the number of cities you have rather then the actual amount of money/luxs you can give. Eg, if you have 200 cities and he has 2 you'll have to pay heaps more for the single luxury item in comparison to what he had to pay for all eight. Something like the total amount of happy faces that will be produced.

	25-02-2003 17:16									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Vlado is correct. The cost of a luxury is directly propotional with the number of happy faces it generates. If you buy your 7th luxury and have 50 cities with marketplaces, then that luxury generates 200 happy faces.

If you buy this from an AI that has 20 cities without marketplaces and you want to pay by giving it other luxuries, then the luxury you sell will only generate 20 happy faces for the AI and is therefore only worth 1/10 of the luxury you buy.

If the AI civ that trades with you is as big as you and have the same number of marketplaces/luxuries, then the price will be close to 1:1 as well (although aggressive AI's will take a slight owerprice on higher difficulty levels).

You will see this come into the opposite effect if you play OCC (One City Contest) games, where the luxuries you buy only make max 4 happy citizens (7th or 8th luxury with marketplace). In such a game I once sold one luxury to a big civ, and in return I got two luxuries and 40+ gold per turn.

	25-02-2003 23:58									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

This is the phenomenon that finally drove me over the edge into full-on-raging-warmongering.

It is often much easier to simply take the luxury away from the AI, rather than paying for it. If you're already so far ahead that the AI laughs at your 4 to 1 trade offer, I'd bet you could probably invade them and take the furs w/o much trouble.

-Arrian

	26-02-2003 01:06									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

This is the single most irritating aspect of diplomacy in Civ3 (although I can understand its cold and numerical logic), and it is the best reason to become a warmongerer, as Arrian pointed out.

	26-02-2003 02:14									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yeah. I agree with the principle - more population/higher price, but the actual implementation isn't real good. At times it seems like the formula the game uses to value the luxuries causes them to just jump logrithmically when your empire passes a certain point.
Anybody researched this? Does going past OCN give the value of luxes an extra multiplier or something?

	26-02-2003 02:19									#9
	Got spare money?

Yeah, this is not good...

	26-02-2003 03:28									#10
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Arrian This is the phenomenon that finally drove me over the edge into full-on-raging-warmongering. It is often much easier to simply take the luxury away from the AI, rather than paying for it. If you're already so far ahead that the AI laughs at your 4 to 1 trade offer, I'd bet you could probably invade them and take the furs w/o much trouble.

So true.

	26-02-2003 03:54									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Badams52, yes, this is true. In fact, I never sign resources trading deals, I ussually just take them by force.

	27-02-2003 14:47									#12
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Yes its true. I could easily invade and take it. But what is happening is that the bastards have MPPs and now i've got 6 of 9 civs declaring war to me, which is becoming a nuisance in my quest of conquering the chineese.

I was looking at this from the smaller civ perspective. A small civ would benefit enormously from getting 4 luxuries and it just doesnt make sense to reject my offer.

I demand a PATCH

	27-02-2003 19:24									#13
	Support Apolyton

Daz,

Which is why war is best done early in the game.

Most of my fighting is done prior to nationalism and the dreaded MPP.

-Arrian

	27-02-2003 20:24									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

The price the AI demands or is willing to pay for a luxury resource mirrors the happiness effect this deal will take upon both sides. If you have a big empire and the AI has only 4 or 5 cities, obviously the 1 luxury the AI gives to you in the deal makes more of your people happy, than your four luxuries make AI citizens happy.

Since the AI always plays at Regent level (at least what concerns happiness), they don't have such an enourmous need in luxuries as a human at higher levels mostly has. If it has enough happiness improvements and already trades for a couple of luxuries from the other AIs (they usually trade eagerly), it may not need your luxuries at all. If all AI citizens are already happy, your luxuries will have zero effect and are this way worth nothing for this particular AI.

This also works, by the way, the other way around. If your empire is smaller, the AI will usually give you a luxury or even a strategical resource for just a few bucks. Try OCC and you'll see.

Best is, if you are way ahead and don't want to warmonger for the luxuries, give the AI an outdated tech every 20 turns. They usually love to take techs for luxuries and sometimes you can even get some extra cash out of this deal.

	02-03-2003 20:29									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Exactly, just give them something else than luxuries. I prefer to give them gold instead of techs though, as it´s a great advantage to be a bit ahead in the techtree. But if the some of the other AI-players also have the tech, then it´s of course better that you profit from selling it rather than if they´re doing it , cus they will sell it.....

	02-03-2003 21:58									#16
	Suffering from ads?

"Ah, here it is: a Gutenberg Printer. It's been a while since we last used it, but it is still in working condition. What? You want it? Well, we can show you how it works, but let's talk about business then..."

At least curiosity, a essencial human characteristic, is also present in the AI mind.