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chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 25-02-2003 23:09 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Consumer Confidence Nears 10-Year Low Put an end to popups!

Feb 25, 12:58 PM (ET)

By REBECCA GOMEZ



(AP) Consumers have grown extremely wary as the United States inches closer to war with Iraq.

NEW YORK (AP) - Consumers have grown increasingly worried about the economy as the nation inches closer to war with Iraq, driving down their confidence levels to their lowest point in nearly a decade, a private research group said Tuesday.

The Consumer Confidence Index plummeted to 64.0 in February from a revised 78.8 in January - a drop of nearly 15 points, the New York-based Conference Board said. That is the lowest reading since the index hit 60.5 in October 1993 and far below analysts' expectations of 77.0 for February.

"It's a bigger drop than expected and at a pretty low level, pretty miserable both in terms of current conditions and expectations," said Josh Feinman, chief economist for Deutsche Asset Management in New York. "On all fronts, it's jitters about the upcoming war with Iraq. I don't think there's any doubt that's playing a role, as well as higher oil prices."

Lynn Franco, director of the Conference Board's Consumer Research Center, said consumers also grew more bleak about lackluster job and financial markets, rising fuel and the increasing threat of terrorism.

Despite all those concerns, consumers still snatched up homes at a record pace.

The National Association of Realtors reported Tuesday that existing-home sales hit a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 6.09 million - the best month ever. That represented a strong 3 percent increase from December's level.

Consumer spending and the housing market have been the few bright spots in an otherwise lackluster economy. Consumer confidence is closely watched because consumer spending accounts for two-thirds of economic activity.

The Conference Board said its Expectations Index, intended to measure sentiment about conditions in the next six months, fell to 65.6 from 81.1 a month ago, while the Present Situation Index dropped to 61.6 from 75.3.

"This month's confidence readings paint a gloomy picture of current economic conditions, with no apparent rebound on the short-term horizon," Franco said.


(AP) A chart shows the Consumer Price Index. (AP Graphic)

On Wall Street, the markets sank a bit shortly after the report was released, but quickly regained their earlier levels. In midday trading, the Dow Jones industrial average was off 104 points at 7,754, while the Nasdaq composite index was down 23 points at 1,299.

As part of the Present Situation Index, consumers who rated current business conditions as bad rose to 30.7 percent from 26.7 percent. The number who said business conditions are good declined to 13.2 percent from 15.0 percent.

Those surveyed who believe business conditions will turn even more sour over the next six months increased to 19.0 percent from 14.0 percent. The percentage of consumers who believe conditions will improve by midyear dropped to 15.3 percent from 17.7 percent.

The number of consumers who said jobs are hard to get rose to a 9-year high of 30.1 percent from 28.9 percent, while those who said there are plenty of jobs decreased to 11.2 percent from 14.5 percent. Looking six months down the road, consumers were more pessimistic, with the number saying they expect there to be fewer jobs available jumping to 28.4 percent from 21.2 percent. The number expecting more jobs fell to 12.7 percent from 14.2 percent.

The consumer confidence index is based on a survey of 5,000 U.S. households and compares to its base of 100 in 1985.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 25-02-2003 23:13
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I just got a new job (though I had hoped another place I had interviewed with would offer me a job) so my confidience is higher then it has been for months.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 25-02-2003 23:14 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Got spare money?

Congrats!

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 25-02-2003 23:16
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Why thank you my good man.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 25-02-2003 23:17
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I just wish everyone else could find a job too.

DuncanK is offline DuncanK
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 25-02-2003 23:47
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Congratulation Oerdin

I'm going to plan to get my MPA just in case it gets tough to find work this year. I think that makes my confidence low, but I'm not sure. Does it measure if you think your income is going to go up?

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:26
  Old Post 26-02-2003 00:40
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This is disturbing news (Not your job Oerdin, that's good news!) about the confidence index. I wonder if this was taken before or after the terror alert was raised.

Sten Sture is offline Sten Sture
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Mar 1999
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 01:23 Visit Sten Sture's homepage!
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The good news in all this is that rising Consumer Confidence has a tendency to be a lagging indicator. In the 1990-91 recession, the economy picked up starting in the 4th Quarter of 1991, but confidence continued to decline until Feb of 1992, and didn't really get going until the end of '93.

So hopefully it will be a similar pattern again this time, with confidence restored in the fall after 6 or so quarters of rising Year-over-year GDP.

Good luck to everyone out there.

Attachment: concconf.gif
This has been downloaded 72 time(s).

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 02:01
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Don't worry, once the Democrats balance the budget, after Bush is out in 2004, the economy will pick up again.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 02:54
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Don't you know it's un-American to focus on defeatist, negative talk about meaningless issues like the economy? There's a war on, you know.

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:26
  Old Post 26-02-2003 03:03
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Don't you know it's un-American to focus on defeatist, negative talk about meaningless issues like the economy? There's a war on, you know.


Some would say that war is good for the economy. Not that I am one of them, but there is some precedent for this I think

DuncanK is offline DuncanK
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 03:29
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Sten,

It seems to me that Consumer Confidence plunged in 1990. True that it didn't pick up until 1993, but the only thing that shows is that even if the economy has already improved this data may not show it. It may also show that we are approaching a recession.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:26
  Old Post 26-02-2003 03:31
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Modern war really isn't. In good ol' meatgrinder wars like WW2, there's a huge amount of fairly standard, almost anyone can make them, labor intensive materiel that needs to be made (and gets consumed) on a regular basis.

In WW2, the US made somewhere around 50,000 Sherman tanks, well over 10,000 each P-51s, B-17's and B-24s, and millions of routine items from uniforms to ammunition to web gear. These items were made by thousands of different companies, many of which were either startups, or adaptations from civilian manufacturing plants.

Now, none of that exists, and defense contractor plant and expertise is extremely specialized, and far less labor intensive. Resupplying cruise missiles will employ probably no more than 2-3000 people (many of whom are already employed), for a few years at most - and most of that funded by cuts or deferrals from other defense programs.

I doubt the amount of stimulus to the economy from this war offsets even a couple of months of damage from the current fuel price spike.

DuncanK is offline DuncanK
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 03:39
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

dp

DuncanK is offline DuncanK
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 03:39
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I think much of the supplies are made in other countries too.

Sten Sture is offline Sten Sture
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Mar 1999
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 04:52 Visit Sten Sture's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Modern war really isn't. ...
I doubt the amount of stimulus to the economy from this war offsets even a couple of months of damage from the current fuel price spike.


Bingo. The fuel price spike is much worse. The trade deficit numbers bear out just how bad $35 vs $20 is for us. MtG, make sure Vicente gets a few of the pesos we are shipping down there!

The especially bad thing about the price spike is that everyone thinks it will be temperary, so rig counts are still low, and there doesn't seem to be much effort in E&P to offset Venezuela and Iraq. Why should they afterall when the price spike is going to be over by this summer. The timing of the Venezuela situation really looks like it threw a spanner in the oil market.

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:26
  Old Post 26-02-2003 05:03
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Okay...so I am a dinosaur on economic theory. Just one question...where does the 40 to 100 billion dollars that this war is going to cost go to?

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Sten Sture


Bingo. The fuel price spike is much worse. The trade deficit numbers bear out just how bad $35 vs $20 is for us. MtG, make sure Vicente gets a few of the pesos we are shipping down there!


Hopefully somebody will be getting something - the Mexican economy is bleeding much worse than the US economy right now, because we're so tied to US trade, tourism, and consumer spending. What benefit Pemex gets doesn't come close to offsetting losses in other areas of the economy. Since the government has such revenue shortfalls, they're proposing their typical solution - tax the hell out of everything that hasn't had the hell taxed out of it already, so the net result will be to force the economy even further underground.

Vicente has problems, since he doesn't have control of the Congress, and nobody else does either. Even the drug trade is off between the border crossing hassles (so many extra people to pay off) and the slackening demand.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by PLATO1003
Okay...so I am a dinosaur on economic theory. Just one question...where does the 40 to 100 billion dollars that this war is going to cost go to?


A lot of it will go as charges to inventories (smart munitions, etc.), while other parts will go to civilian transport contractors, bribes to our alliance of the paid for, increased personnel pay (hazardous duty and combat pay, etc.), fuel consumption out the wazoo, and chargeoffs for broken or killed items such as trucks, planes, tank engines, etc. Eventually, it all comes out of the taxpayer, but not for several years.

The distribution of the money is pretty much the same as with peacetime military spending, with the exception of a relatively big jump in fuel procurement, and third-party transport costs.

DanS is offline DanS
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 05:42 Visit DanS's homepage!
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The trade deficit numbers bear out just how bad $35 vs $20 is for us.

Well, shoot. It's not that bad. If you assume that the steady-state is $25, then $35 would only be $3 billion out of a $45 billion trade deficit on a monthly basis. $35 ain't gonna last long.

DuncanK is offline DuncanK
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 05:58
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Maybe it would be a good idea to give an immediate bonus to all military personel involved in combat. They really deserve it and it would help the economy. Of course, it would only help immediately if they sent it home for their wifes to spend. Probably few would.

Ned is offline Ned
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Oct 1999
time: 21:26
  Old Post 26-02-2003 06:44
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So, Mexico addresses a bad economy by increasing taxes. I believe this is Sava's recommendation for the US as well.

This seems to be a formula for a depression. When the economy is staggering in the desert, take its last drop of water.

Smart.

Zkribbler is offline Zkribbler
King
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Feb 1999
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 07:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
So, Mexico addresses a bad economy by increasing taxes. I believe this is Sava's recommendation for the US as well.


Fiscal responsibility will do more for restoring consumer confidence than will the granting of tax-free incomes to billionaires so they can buy Rolls Royces, French wines, Italian art and Japanese vacations.

DuncanK is offline DuncanK
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 07:37
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Generally I would say that raising taxes would not be good for the economy. But sometimes it is. I think the Clinton tax hikes did restore confidence, because people saw that they were needed to lower interest rates. In this case taxes might not be that bad, because people see that we are going to need that revenue when social security starts running deficits in the next decade of so. I think a lot of people might think these tax cuts wont work and they are irresponsible.

Sava is offline Sava
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 07:38
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Don't you know it's un-American to focus on defeatist, negative talk about meaningless issues like the economy? There's a war on, you know.

BWAHHAHAHWABHAWHAHAHAHAH OMG that was funny MtG... while Bush is leading the country into the toilet, you say we it's unAmerican to talk about a meaningless issue like the economy?! Please tell me you're joking!

Sava is offline Sava
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 07:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
So, Mexico addresses a bad economy by increasing taxes. I believe this is Sava's recommendation for the US as well.

This seems to be a formula for a depression. When the economy is staggering in the desert, take its last drop of water.

Smart.


I never said raising taxes genius. Stop jumping to conclusions.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 10:18 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
Please tell me you're joking!


Wasn't it obvious?

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 11:57
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quote:
Originally posted by DuncanK
Maybe it would be a good idea to give an immediate bonus to all military personel involved in combat. They really deserve it and it would help the economy. Of course, it would only help immediately if they sent it home for their wifes to spend. Probably few would.


Most of it stays home - the joys of direct deposit, plus it's kind of hard to find ATM's or anything to spend your money on out in the Iraqi desert.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
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  Old Post 26-02-2003 12:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
So, Mexico addresses a bad economy by increasing taxes. I believe this is Sava's recommendation for the US as well.

This seems to be a formula for a depression. When the economy is staggering in the desert, take its last drop of water.

Smart.


Mexico's tax system is rather interesting. The voluntary compliance rates are near zero, underground income makes up a huge portion of off-the-books GDP, and the government rationalizes that to get more revenue, they need to come up with new ways of taxing people - encouraging more non-compliance and evasion.

This country is a classic case for supply-side overhaul of the tax system, but there are hugely powerful interests in and out of government who don't want to rock the boat, no matter how beneficial to the country and the people in the long run.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Wasn't it obvious?


Quite.

 
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