25-02-2003 23:38									#1
	Alliance Cancellation Full PM-box? Change here!

My question is what happened if you end a Military Alliance early by destroying the civ you are allied against. Does this hurt your reputation?

Or if say you do a trade deal with GPT or luxury to make another civ ally with you, and you destroy your enemy. Do you still have to fullfill your end of the deal, or the GPT/luxury deal gets cancelled also? And if this happened will the AI hate you more because they think you end a deal prematurely?

I'm just curious because I keep seeing one AI having Gracious attitude to Annoyed after I kill off another AI before the 20 Turn Alliance ends.

Thanks.

	25-02-2003 23:59									#2
	Support Apolyton

The incomplete answer is "no" to both questions. Having a military alliance with one or more civs and destroying the common enemy does not seem to result in a reputation hit, despite many posts to the contrary. A poster named Aggie tested this and posted results over at CFC -- feel free to search for a thread entitled "MA vs. a dying civ." Aggie even showed that having an alliance with an AI in which he paid gpt to the AI, and then destroying the common enemy, resulted in (1) the gpt obligation ending, and (2) no discernible reputation hit.

On a related point, it is still unclear to me whether having a trade deal with a civ who is subsequently eliminated ("breaking" your deal) causes a reputation hit against you with respect to all the other civs -- it's been a long time since it happened to me, and I've never seen test results (though I've seen a lot of posts indicating that it does, in fact, count as a rep hit).

On a related, related point (), do not confuse reputation with attitude -- they are distinct concepts and operate independently, even though certain actions may seem to have similar effects on both. You can have a spotless reputation but still have the enitre world "furious" with you; you can have an atrocious reputation but still have civs "gracious" with you. In your specific case, it sounds like the AI civs had an artificially positive attitude towards you during the term of your alliance while fighting a common foe. When the foe (and the allaince) disappeared, the AIs "lost" the artificial attitude boost, and their attitudes settled back to a "natural" level.

Bamspeedy recently did extensive testing on attitude and actions that affect AI attitudes -- check out this thread which links to Bamspeedy's posted results elsewhere.

Catt

	26-02-2003 00:33									#3
	Got spare money?

quote: On a related point, it is still unclear to me whether having a trade deal with a civ who is subsequently eliminated ("breaking" your deal) causes a reputation hit against you with respect to all the other civs

I dunno about the specific case of the civ you're trading with being eliminated, but I can verify that if you have a trade deal that is broken due to war (outside of your control, like the civ your trading partner is fighting takes their only port), your rep is trashed. It's happened to me several times. If I then try to get a lump-sum type payment for luxuries (gold lump sum or world map) it's a no-go, and they will inform me they are aware of my "cheating the XYZ civ."

-Arrian

	26-02-2003 00:50									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Arrian if you have a trade deal that is broken due to war (outside of your control, like the civ your trading partner is fighting takes their only port), your rep is trashed. -Arrian

That's kinda messed up. I can understand if your only port gets taken by ur enemy clearing the deal, but if it's their port, then it should be their problem

	26-02-2003 01:17									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Becareful who you trade with

Actually this would be really easy to test. The next time you have an AI civ about to die off (but can still trade) give him GPT for a territory map and see what happens to your rep. after he dies.

	26-02-2003 01:52									#6
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

real easy if I werent posting at work and am in front of my home computer that has civ 3

	26-02-2003 03:15									#7
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by minke19104 real easy if I werent posting at work and am in front of my home computer that has civ 3

maybe someone will do this for us. hint. hint.

	26-02-2003 03:56									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by minke19104 That's kinda messed up. I can understand if your only port gets taken by ur enemy clearing the deal, but if it's their port, then it should be their problem

Sure is, but it keeps us from exploiting trades. Think about it...I'm at war with someone, I make a trade across the ocean for much needed saltpeter then start my cavalry production. I sell my own harbors. Deal broken and I get to make my cavalry. Begin building a harbor...

Of course it's easliy rectifiable in the code if they create a 'who broke the deal' rule deciding how the deal got cancelled. But without it, there would be some great exploiting I could do. Like the buy a tech using gpt from the AI who's going to declare war on you (you know they'll declare war since they've moved their large forces toward your territory).

	26-02-2003 16:34									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by minke19104 real easy if I werent posting at work and am in front of my home computer that has civ 3

+1 eh? (Like me in this post)