27-02-2003 05:41									#31
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quote: Originally posted by alva * alva awaits an apology, but is relieved that he's not senile (yet)*

well, if I offended you in some way, please accept my apology... but know that it was not my intention. I simply wanted to warn that we don't really know anything about the buildup in ND forces (true, they have ~10 swords, according to Trip, and he said he anticipated 20 swords very soon), and that the 'rumours' we heared were quite vague...

RP will have a quite good idea of ND's military strength, and I doubt that we can add information to it, without revealing where it comes from, or why we think it would be accurate. The most we can say is something like 'it seems ND has a stronger force then anyone on the continent, we hope you won't be attacked soon', but anything more specific makes our relation to Lux less secret IMHO. And note that in one of the last messages I sent to RP, I mentioned to them that if they needed a loan, we might be able to supply it to them, that's already a quite big commitment, and a show of our empathy (? compassion wasn't the right word, is empathy it?) wrt their situation.

DeepO

	27-02-2003 18:46									#32
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I suggest that ambassadors edit the finals of the deals that they worked out into the top post so that the player won't make any embarrassing mistakes.
I took the liberty of editing in the deal with GoW (we offer CoL for 150 gold, they accept and offer us Map Making for 150 gold when they're done researching it).

	27-02-2003 19:25									#33
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Good, once we have turn deals going on, we'll reall need that.

	27-02-2003 19:53									#34
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Okay, what's the consensus here, do ambassadors edit 'their' deals, or do we centralize it with Zeit? I didn't include the deal with RP so far...

DeepO

	27-02-2003 20:50									#35
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For the sake of responsiveness, let the ambassadors edit 'their' deals into the top post, which Zeit can, of course, re-edit should he choose to do so.

	27-02-2003 22:46									#36
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I'd rather wait another turn before distributing Code of Laws to give us an extra day or so in case ND comes up with an offer. Also, from what RP said, I'm less than 100% confident that they have Literature yet.

	27-02-2003 23:43									#37
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Can't we ask RP for clarification? There's still plenty of time for that, since Lux is holding up the save for some reason.

	27-02-2003 23:50									#38
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quote: since Lux is holding up the save for some reason

The only reason I can think of is they are (re)negotiating with Vox..or (lego?)

	28-02-2003 00:22									#39
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bah, is there any difference? because all the offers won't be accepted by us, the soonest anyone will get CoL is in 2 turns from now. So, ND will next turn see the full cost in F6...

OTOH, if a Bob team made a deal with ND to trade CoL to them, it can be made already, and the delay doesn't give us anything.

If we see in F6 that literature is not discovered yet, we have a half decent reason to delay it anyway, but frankly, I see no point in delaying it... we should simply get a response from ND.

Alva, I'm not sure you did this already, but could you check with Murkel that his e-mail notification is on? it's entirely possible that he needs to check into 'poly to see his PMs, I thought he wasn't very known around this forum.

DeepO

	28-02-2003 08:10									#40
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Vox went ahead and offered us the 75 gold planned in the revised deal. I checked the poll I put up, and only one person voted so far (I haven't tried to vote there yet myself), so I think the team's feeling is that we don't understand the situation well enough to make a decision. I'm inclined to reject the offer this turn and send back a note to the effect that we need to clarify some things. Unfortunately, I won't have time to address the issue properly until Saturday. Thoughts, anyone?

Nathan

	28-02-2003 08:14									#41
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Score information:

111 (+2) Gathering Storm
119 (+2) Demogyptica
99 (+2) Glory of War
125 (+3) Role Play
87 (+2) Vox Controli
70 (-1) Lux Invicta
133 (+3) Legoland

	28-02-2003 08:37									#42
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Accept it, we can always give it back....

	28-02-2003 09:09									#43
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Okay, I accepted the gold.

Checking research costs, it looks like RP does have Literature finished.

	28-02-2003 09:12									#44
	Got spare money?

Portia is still size 2 and undefended.

	28-02-2003 09:29									#45
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Screenshots sent. My inclination is to go ahead and wait a turn to start offering Code of Laws in-game to give us more time to try to bargain with ND. Any objections?

	28-02-2003 09:39									#46
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Not from me.
-
Anyone any idea why Madrid has stopped growing (3 turns now) at size 5?

	28-02-2003 09:41									#47
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How much food does an irrigated-game-grass tile produce (under despotism)?

	28-02-2003 09:49									#48
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Irrigated game on grassland produces four food under Despotism. That, plus the mined wheat, gives us a total of five surplus per turn for Cyclone, which (with a granary) is what's needed for two-turn workers or four-turn settlers. Next turn, Cyclone grows, and after that, it grows every two turns (shrinking back when it builds a settler or worker) unless we make a mistake managing it. (This turn, Bolderberg is borrowing the game tile since Cyclone can grow without it.)

	28-02-2003 10:01									#49
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Irrigated game on grassland produces four food under Despotism. That, plus the mined wheat, gives us a total of five surplus per turn for Cyclone, which (with a granary) is what's needed for two-turn workers or four-turn settlers.

A REXer's dream...I love it!

	28-02-2003 10:02									#50
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Turn sent.

	28-02-2003 10:12									#51
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Yep, it is impressive, good work Nathan

	28-02-2003 18:06									#52
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Alva: Madrid probably didn't grow because it build a worker at the same time as it would have grown...

As to the deal with RP: I'll send them a note, to explain our situation... this evening. No time right now

DeepO

	01-03-2003 00:37									#53
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DeepO, That's not really what I meant.
On the f11 screen Madrids number shows up in yellow (no growth).
They are either working forest tiles for production or have some happininess problems (maybe due to rushing?).

	01-03-2003 04:59									#54
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Ah, the yellow... I think that's just an artefact of using compression, or an update flaw of the civ engine. Note that Legopolis also has a yellow size number, but they grew (being yellow) last turn from 4 to 5...

DeepO

	01-03-2003 05:34									#55
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Again, nope

It doesn't show on size 4 (went through the last 7 or 8 screens), but once they hit size 5, it turns yellow.

	01-03-2003 05:47									#56
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hmmm... I'm not convinced. In both 1550 and 1575 it seems yellow to me, which are both screenies from SR, and not from Nathan...

Easy check: can we set our food to a loss temporary, and check out the F11 screen? It updates immediately, right?

DeepO

	01-03-2003 06:25									#57
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I reloaded the save, and Madrid looks yellow in-game. EotS's color on F11 does reflect its food status - white if it's growing, yellow if it's at break-even, and red if it's shrinking. Regarding Legopolis, I think it's been white and the yellow you think you're seeing is just an optical illusion due to all the green around. DeepO, I'll send you a .gif of the current minimap in a few minutes.

	01-03-2003 18:18									#58
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I tested it in the Euro game as well, and you might be right... why would Madrid keep it's growth down? with a temple and 2 warriors they can get to size 6 without happiness problems...

Only logical conclusion is they need the shields urgently, as they are probably working hills or forest. If it only was for 1 turn, I can imagine, e.g. for building a granary before growing and losing half the food, but this is rather long.

Nathan, thanks for the file, however it was more lossy than the last screenshot... could you resent it in a .bmp, please?

DeepO

	01-03-2003 18:46									#59
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Yep, and building a granary when growing to size 6 is a bit of a waste too.

There not building a wonder are they? (palace prebuild?, ah, no that can't be it).

Strange..

	01-03-2003 19:12									#60
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well... building a granary can make sense, we already suspect they are on a river. Plus, it's only from size 7 on that it takes 40 food to proceed to the next level (but if I'm right, getting to size 7 empties the granary), even if they now build a granary, they will have a nice settler pump. According to Lux, Bob is big, so they will most likely not see the end of their Rexing fase yet.

wonders: no palace prebuilds, but a granary or library prebuild could be possible. However, building a wonder in your capital is always risky. They wouldn't be building a library, would they? it doesn't make sense to delay growth for that. Other possibility is that although they have a lot of growth (at least a 3 surplus up until size 4), they don't have enough production, and want to shift Madrid to a barracks city capable of 10 shields/turn, instead of a bigger city with only 9 spt or less. Still, it feels awkward, and not the most effective use of their production.

DeepO