26-02-2003 02:04									#1
	Turn 63, 1450 BC Got spare money?

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:
- Completing Code of Laws
- 54 gold cash, 4 upkeep to pay, bilance depends on next research
- Eye of the Storm's radius expands.

Urgent questions:
- What to research next?

Military:
- Non-sentrified warriors sentrify.

Economy:
- Set the science slider to zero and accumulate gold while waiting for Vox to finish Philosophy so we can start Republic.
- EotS finishes Worker #5, starts Worker #6?
- EotS needs to work three flood plains and an irrigated fur.
- Worker #5 moves to the horse tile to irrigate, then road. (Irrigation is the higher priority so we can work the tile for shields without losing food.)
- Bolderberg finishes barracks, starts spearman.
- Cyclone finishes granary, starts settler.
- Worker "6" from Cyclone finished road, moves 2 to the wheat tile by Tornado.
- Worker on game tile finished irrigation, moves 2 to the last of Cyclone's grasslands with shield.
- Worker near Hurricane finishes mine, starts road.
- Move laborer in Tornado to wheat.
- Move Cyclone's laborer on the game forest to the other mined grassland with shield. (That should still leave enough food to grow next turn.)
- Reconfigure laborers in Bolderberg to work the game tile, the irrigated plains, and an unimproved grassland.

(Wshew, lots of economic stuff this turn.)

Diplomacy:
- Get our trade deals finalized!

Trade Deals

ND
-Message sent regarding CoL trade(25/2)
-Message has been read(26/2)
-ND proposed same deal as GoW, we diddn't accept
-new message has been sent asking to come up with something else
-new message has been read, no answer yet (27/2)
-new message to Murkel asking to speed things up(20.00h-27/2)
-all messages have been read by ND, no reply yet though(new proposal) (1-3)
-ND has acknowledged message and have responded although nothing concrete is mentioned (26/2)
(alva)
------------------------------------------------------

GoW
-Send GoW an acknowledged offer of CoL for 150 gold. They will accept and respond with an offer of Map Making for 150 gold when they're done researching it, so we end up even. See GoW contact log.

---------------
RP
RP acknowledges our deal, the moment we offer CoL, they say they can match it with Lit.

Last edited by alva on 01-03-2003 at 20:48

	26-02-2003 02:07									#2
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quote: - Bolderberg finishes barracks, starts ...? (hopefully military )

Defense one(s) I suppose.

	26-02-2003 02:11									#3
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Some spearmen would be nice, yeah. Or War Chariots. Either one is fine by me.

-Arrian

	26-02-2003 02:25									#4
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Same here, more spearmen would be great.
Next tech: currency, perhaps? Noone is currently working on that IIRC.

	26-02-2003 02:42									#5
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Currency is too expensive, we need something cheaper. Mind you, that Vox is researching Philosophy, and we want to research Republic as soon as they complete it. May be we should just halt research for a while, stockpiling gold. Now that we have contact, gold is equivalent to techs.

	26-02-2003 02:50									#6
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Any estimates on Vox's ETA for Philosophy? (or can we simply ask them?)
Btw, congrats on your new avatar.

	26-02-2003 03:04									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Maybe we could start on Map Making so that if we cannot trade for it, we can keep the 20 turn commitment with Lux.

	26-02-2003 03:06									#8
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Our diplomats our working around the clock to finalize the tech deals, and i have sent GoW our proposal. I want our deal to be synchronized- a MP tech whoring...

I also suggest stockpiling gold- there's no telling when we might a few quick warrior upgrades.

	26-02-2003 03:35									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Republic has no free unit upkeep, so we can burn through mountains of gold in no time once we get there. Stockpiling cash while we wait for either Vox to finish Philosophy or our efforts to trade for Map Making to fail is no problem.

I'll post full economic orders later. I'm thinking in terms of setting Bolderberg on a spearman, but if the shields favor it, possibly switching to a vet warrior as a potential sword upgrade. Does that sound good?

Nathan

	26-02-2003 15:37									#10
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Could all diplomats (and others) post/edit their trade deals into the first post please.

Things are getting VERY confusing.

ATM I have absolutely no idea, what to whom we are selling and buying, how much gold Lux is going to give us for something we are going to get Lux in return for not moving unit X while giving the Y technology we are trading with RP which we can't sell for Z turns unless we give them iron to compensate the trade we have going with GoW for not attacking ND unless.....

I guess you get the picture

	26-02-2003 15:46									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Oh btw:

Perhaps it's time (well, maybe not just yet), to start thinking about NOT trading (scary thought isn't), to the BOB civs. IF tension is rising is might be more lucrative to let them do their research on their own and effectively letting them do the same research, while Vox and us can split the difference.
(except for maybe a couple of VERY lucrative deals.)
They can't get their tech from anyone else anymore (and we have caught up) and as long as Lego is out of the picture, they can't sell it either.
One of the reasons Lux is still candidate for extermination as far as I am concerned.(Not the next few turns), but before they reach Lego.

	26-02-2003 17:12									#12
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Alva, there is a thread for the specific CoL trade deal...

I'll add my part (no editing, I'm not the diplo chief): Offer CoL to RP (not accepted, of course), we should receive literature in return.


As to what to research next: stock pile gold, and wait for philosophy. And maybe a note to Vox, where we urge them to be a bit fast with this, they anticipated another 6-7 turns from now (IIRC), I suspect this doesn't mean they're running at 100% research. We can almost get philosophy by the same turn as Vox, if we start now... with their decreased population, this will only worsen

DeepO

	26-02-2003 18:32									#13
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Ok, I just read the chat log with Vox (posted in the Lux contact thread...), and, I hate to do this, but I need someone to tell me exactly what's going on.

1. Lux never had 150 gold, having gave it all to Vox, yet made deals with used based on that assumption. That's not very nice of them, if this is correct.

2. What exactly where the researching agreements between Lux, Vox and us? Lux and Vox cannot research much under a 40-turn pace (edit: I suppose Vox can get Philo reasonably fast)...so we're just getting the scraps from poor civs. Their main use to us is their leveraging power is an independent civ.

I know I've got another couple of questions, but the chat has left me so confused, I forget them.

As I suggested before, could the diplomats post a summary of each chat log? Never mind they're long to read, but actually understanding everything when you're not there is difficult.

Edit: I second Alva's comment about tech trades.


Dominae

	26-02-2003 18:53									#14
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quote: 1. Lux never had 150 gold, having gave it all to Vox, yet made deals with used based on that assumption. That's not very nice of them, if this is correct.

Agree, they are promising trade without having them, buying others with gold of tech they will sell but don't have.

Although this is a very powerfull strategy, if you get away with it, but only IF.
The civs on BOB got hold of it and well, we all know what happened after that.

Perhaps moving the warrior next to their city next turn, and asking for some clarification(s) (with added warrior pressure), might not be such a bad idea.

	26-02-2003 20:37									#15
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO And maybe a note to Vox, where we urge them to be a bit fast with this

I'd suggest that we emphasize in our message that the faster they research Philosophy, the sooner we can start on Republic, and therefore the sooner both our nations can enjoy the advantages of this improved system of government.

	27-02-2003 00:09									#16
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I see another Luxian scheme coming- and we have no time for BS right now. This is just why Lux was hated on BOB, and there's no evidence of this not happening again.

Lux doesn't have the money- where are the planning to get it?
do we care?
I don't think so. So, i think it's worth moving our warrior in a position to threaten Lux. I don't think Vox will just thrown themselves to Lux's rescue, and i don't think this is worth dragging on. Maybe if they give us BOB's screenshot, we let them live for now. But they should be in constant threat.

We should explain this to if we don't want to do it ourselves, because i'd hate seeing ourselves being tricked like BOB's teams were (or at least that's how they see it, and so am i...).

In short- give us something now, because we don't trust you to do so later (given your reputation), or else...

What do you say?


Regaring Vox- i agree, we should send them a message to hasten their research, in the meantime, we stockpile.

	27-02-2003 00:17									#17
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Stockpile the gold so we can do a headlong rush for Republic once we get Philo.

I agree to some extent with zeit (though the moment for moving our warrior in is past, I think, since we've now agree to deal with them). Lets put pressure on them for the screenies.

-Arrian

	27-02-2003 00:18									#18
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We should certainly spur Lux into giving us screenshots of Bob immediately, but I'm not too excited about the prospects of moving our warrior into Lux territory.
Edit: cross-posted with Arrian.

	27-02-2003 00:54									#19
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My strong impression is that Vox is researching as fast as they can, but they simply don't have the income base to do it faster. We have two cities that routinely operate at size 3 or higher with two gold from each tile, and another city built on a gold hill. Vox's capital is only size 2, and I doubt that any of their cities ever stays at size 3 for long before building a settler or worker. And Vox likely has no more than one tile that can provide growth and production while yielding more than one gold per turn. Thus, at present, the disparity in our research rates is enormous.

But once we get into Republic, we'll be able to burn through stockpiled gold quite rapidly since our free unit support will vanish.

	27-02-2003 01:26									#20
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well... I just reread the Vox chat log, and I agree, it seems as if they aren't keeping back, they're just miserable in research. The idea of them not trading philosophy might work, with only one problem: if they have it and send it to us, other teams will be able to very quickly research it too. It might only be a few turns after we get it from Vox that the rest gets it anyway.

DeepO

	27-02-2003 01:30									#21
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Oh, are we going to delay the deal with RP, or not? If so, I want to send them a message that we'll be running late. BTW, I did not tell them we would end CoL now, they said that as fast as we could offer it, they could give literature in return. Please check research costs again, to see if RP has already discovered literature, if not, it might give us a good reason to delay the trade.

I'd rather have the deal worked out with all teams, though, so we don't need to delay anything...

DeepO

	27-02-2003 01:30									#22
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But even a few turns' head start could be useful. And if we watch carefully, how quickly others get Philosophy could give an excellent indication of when (and whether) we might need to sell Republic to preempt someone else's plans to finish it and sell it.

	27-02-2003 01:44									#23
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True... I don't mind keeping Philosophy from the rest of the world, and I'm sure we could get Vox to play its part. We only need to say 'we got an NDA on philosophy, sorry, we can't trade it to anyone', Vox can delay, ask for exuberant prices, simply play with it (even outright lying, and saying they haven't got it yet might work).

And yes, once we see someone acquiring it, we can ask Vox to sell it to everyone they want. Plus, indeed, we should get a minimum boundary on how long the rest of the world is going to take to get to the republic (which, BTW, will only be 'until the GL gets built', as both us and Vox will have the tech)

DeepO

	27-02-2003 02:14									#24
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We could mention to RP, that we heard rumours of ND building lot's of offensive units.
If we can get them all to build units instead of infrastructure...

Another small edge for us long-term.

	27-02-2003 02:23									#25
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Hmmm... and whom do we have heared that from? No direct lies, please... I think RP is going to build units anyway

DeepO

	27-02-2003 02:54									#26
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Didn't Trip mention something like this?

I wasn't trying to make something up. I honestly thought I read it on the log containing the chat with NYE, Nathan,Dominae, Theseus and Trip.

	27-02-2003 02:55									#27
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Yes, Trip mentioned the number of ND swordsmen many times.

	27-02-2003 03:00									#28
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* alva awaits an apology, but is relieved that he's not senile (yet)*

	27-02-2003 04:11									#29
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He said 20- but does that make sense- it's 800 gold for upgrades, and even if they did half- they are not behind in tech. So, how did they pull it off?

The power graph analysts could shed some light on this- ND's power should be sky high if they have that number of swordsmen, right?

	27-02-2003 04:16									#30
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Trip said ND has 9 Vet. Swordsmen about now, and will have around 20 "very soon". Seems like he was trying to threaten us with ND's power, to put us at odds.


Dominae