26-02-2003 12:31									#31
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's only overpriced because of tarrifs. Personally, I prefer Italian wine any day of the week, but good French wine is truely wonderful stuff.

Two of the five Premier Crus Classés are owned by the global zionist-banker conspiracy, fronted by the Rothschilds, yet another reason to boycott them

	26-02-2003 12:34									#32
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Who said the French were antisemitic ?

	26-02-2003 20:33									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Down with the purveyors of German imperialism, McDonalds!

Seeing these two flags together makes me sick...

	26-02-2003 20:44									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Spiffor, when France made it a bit harder to defend europe, I thought, eh, they are stupid and screw themselves. Alot of Americans developed a dislike at that point. France became the butt of a few jokes. Then, France became known for its rude citizenry, known for their dislike of Americans. It bbecame known as a place to watch your wallet, and watch out for American haters trying a con. All unseemly stuff that existed below the surface. Well, it's not below the surface anymore. France has now raised the ire of Americans that will last for a long time, and is much stronger than you imagine. Not just the government, but Americans. This will cost you BILLIONS as Americans say **** YOU with their wallets. The boycott is on, believe me. France has 30 billion in trade with the US. Well, kiss much of that goodbye, more as the boycotts become more organized. Even my wacko leftist brother hates France. My co-workers speak of their dislike of the French...it's a part of the fabric of American society now. All because of your love of a two bit murdering dictator... Eh, I waste my time with you.

Well here in spain we'll buy more french wine... In the last demostration against your next stupid war all MCDonalds "restaurants" were closed...

How many billion in trade has US with the rest of the world? We can also make a boycott...

Ciao, capullo.

	26-02-2003 20:53									#35
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quote: Seeing these two flags together makes me sick...

It makes you "sick" to see an American anarchist?

	26-02-2003 21:36									#36
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IIRC, during the 50s a restaurant in denmark banned all germans older than 25 because "they knew what the nazis did and did nothing to stop them"

	26-02-2003 21:51									#37
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Spiffor: When someone is as wrong as you are, it is hard to know where to start. I will try however to make simple enough for even you to understand.

"Peace through strength" was the American policy toward the USSR that resulted in a bloodless victory in the cold war.

"Appeasement" was the French policy toward Germany prior to WWII. This resulted in a bloody victory.

Both times the US had to carry the torch.

With respect to the Iraqi situation: Saddam was showing signs of crumbling as the world united in passing 1441. There was even talk among Arab leaders about encouraging exile for him. This was peace through strength and was moving in the correct direction. Suddenly the French, realizing that their ME powerbase was in jeapordy, began persuing an appeasement policy. The result is that now in order for Iraq to be disarmed, it will probably require war. (Please do not forget that 1441 requires disarmament or serious consequences).

This is why Americans blame France. The French have made it virtually impossible to achieve the stated goals in any other manner.

Also, Don't underestimate the resentment that Americans have for the French right now. This problem is not likely to go away. I hear more and more every day from just about everone I come in contact with.

Furthermore, on the issue of morality and legality: 1.) UN Security counsel has already authorized "serious consequences" and US Congress has authorized use of Force. Their is no national or international question on legality. 2.) Morally is up to the individual to decide. My feeling is that taking out a dictator that has started two wars with his neighbors, gassed his own people, asassinated his way to the top, is trying to obtain nuclear weapons, has wmd, and oppresses his own people ruthlessly is THE RIGHT THING TO DO!!

	26-02-2003 23:00									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo It makes you "sick" to see an American anarchist?

Don't you think it's a a little contradictory both flags together?

I'm tired of that libertarian american anarchists (rightwing anarchists) who use to feel closed to the black and red flag.

Excuse me english (isn't my second language either)

	26-02-2003 23:05									#39
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So let me get this straight. This guy is unwilling to allow the French into his pizzaria for the unforgivable sin of not being perpetually grateful to the US for our unwilling assistance in liberating Europe from the Nazis, but he is willing to forgive the Germans. The Germans. The people who made it neccessary for Europe to be saved in the first place.

It is difficult for me to conceive of a stupider or more hypocritical stance. What a moron.

I don't recall Denmark declaring war on Germany when it invaded Poland, as France did. In fact, if I recall correctly, Denmark didn't even declare war on Germany when Germany invaded Denmark.

	26-02-2003 23:15									#40
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VanguardSpiff: don't let these people get to you: while thier "opinions" are sadly a bit too common, the American people have the attentiona spans of flies. A couple of years, and boom, only the most stubborn wil care, and those are the folk that you will never win anyway.

As for the Dane: sad. More reason to cut back the power microstates have in the EU.

Also, I rememebre back to september of last eyar or someime, when we had a thread on WW2, and in it Sloww (yes, Sloww) wrote about the French forces in Italy and how they where top notch and gave great help to various Texas divisions. Maybe its time to dig that up, and post it every toime one fo these loudmouths starts talking about the french and WW2.

Also, Vanguard.

	26-02-2003 23:33									#41
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This ongoing anti-French thing is disturbing. I half expect Hollywood to come out with some seriously racist films, depicting the 'inferiority' of the French.

	27-02-2003 00:17									#42
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quote: Don't you think it's a a little contradictory both flags together?

Why? My nationality is American. I listen to American music, eat American food, follow American traditions, etc. That doesn't constrain my political philosophy.

quote: I'm tired of that libertarian american anarchists (rightwing anarchists) who use to feel closed to the black and red flag. Excuse me english (isn't my second language either)

1. Who said I was a "right-wing anarchist?" I'd think that my sig (or post or avatar) would've dispelled such an assumption.
2. I've never seen a libertarian-capitalist use a CNT-style flag.

	27-02-2003 00:25									#43
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GePap, I have to agree on the attention span item.

Vanguard, I definately agree with your point as well.

Let me say this about the French. They are a truly great culture for which the world is better off for.
My personal belief is that they continually take positions that are short sighted for even their own benefit. Their opposition to enforcing 1441 is just a typical example. If the world does not disarm Iraq then France benefits in the short term, but what about the long term implications of leaving a madman in charge of Iraq? Gepap, Vanguard, Spiffor-what do you see the future holding if the current regime is left in place? I really would be interested in your thoughts.

	27-02-2003 00:33									#44
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PLATO: if the French have done what they did is not because they disagree with the final US aim, but with how the US got there. This admin. begun talkign about how it would invade, damn the world. Then it went to the UN, but all along kept saying "yeah, we went to the UN, but in the end, screw them, we invade when we want to". The US never made an attepmt to listen to anyone. The only time members of the admin. go to European countries that did not sign on from the start is when some multilateral meeting that they have to attend is taking place. For all the talk about the UN, this admin. ahs shown nothing but contempt for anyone who did not agree with 100%. Why then should anyone else act more civilly towards us?

As for what the futute hold in store: the same as the last 12 years, nothing. Saddam ahs doen nothing in the last 12 years, and he would do as much in the next 20, until he died. He is contained, and the Iraq-Al Qaeda link is crap. If Saddam didn't give them anthrax already, why would he do it in the future?????

Now, if you wan tot talk aboutt he Iraqi people, fine, I am willing to listen, but the way this admin., has gone about the process is sickening. And they say the French are rude....

	27-02-2003 00:39									#45
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Why? My nationality is American. I listen to American music, eat American food, follow American traditions, etc. That doesn't constrain my political philosophy.

That's true. I think i'm wrong, perhaps because this antiamerican feeling we have in europe.

1. Who said I was a "right-wing anarchist?" I'd think that my sig (or post or avatar) would've dispelled such an assumption.
2. I've never seen a libertarian-capitalist use a CNT-style flag. [/QUOTE]


I didn't said you were a right-wing anarchist (btw that's not an anarchist at all). I 've seen libertarian-capitalist (better name) using the CNT-style flag, more than once but always in internet (we don't have this kind of people here in spain).

Bye.

	27-02-2003 00:54									#46
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quote: VanguardSpiff: don't let these people get to you: while thier "opinions" are sadly a bit too common, the American people have the attentiona spans of flies. A couple of years, and boom, only the most stubborn wil care, and those are the folk that you will never win anyway.

I got halfway through that paragraph. How 'bout that for attention span?

Did someone say MacDonalds?? Are they still serving French Fries?!

Yeah, it is a shame that the Danish pizza guy won't let them eat there. What they really need to do is set up some special camps that they can go to in order to get Danish pizza... Yeah, that's the ticket.

As you can see I think it is all Banana's, and Vanguard, you will do well to listen Gepap; us Americans are so ignorant anyway, and what is worse than idiots with guns?...hmmm... how 'bout Germans with guns? Or even better French with guns, heck, it is dangerous to give a gun to someone who doesn't know how to use one!

Really, it is a true crime being commited by that pizza man. Yet, it is good to know that us Americans have a little company when we encounter those who call us racist.

	27-02-2003 01:09									#47
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GePap: I'll agree that the US admin has been poor at consensus building. I would find it doubtful that they did not consult with allies at all prior to developing policy. For all of those twelve years Iraq has not complied with UN resolutions, thus prompting additional resolutions (17 passed to date and one on the table). Although the French have contributed to Iraqi containment, the bulk of the job has been done with US forces. No one seems to appreciate that Iraq has been firing on our aircraft (which are their under UN auspices) more and more frequently. Evidence has been presented that shows that Iraq is building or at the very least attempting to build an arsenal of wmd. I agree that they have been contained; I cannot agree that this is a static situation and that containment will hold. When current Iraqi leadership has thought victory possible in the past they have not hesitated to attack two of their neighbors.

People say that the French are calling for a calm and measured response. I think that the world has been pursuing that course for the last twelve years. At some point doesn't the world have to decide to take action?

BTW I do agree that their is no love lost between Al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein, but their IS evidence of communication between them. (Yes, I know...the current situation probably is percipitating it)

As for the Iraqi people...what a horrible plight is theirs! I truly feel for these people. This is one of the great benefits that would arise out of a US victory. For them to have a chance at true freedom and democratic rule is a tremendous boon. Unfortunately there are people around the world experiencing their same situation. The reason nothing is done for them militarily is National Sovereignty. It is all the other reasons PLUS the human plight that makes "regime change" the only option. (Please note...I am for regime change, not war. War seems to be the only option left for accomplishing this. If there was TRULY another way, I would support it)

Thanks for your thoughts!

	27-02-2003 01:17									#48
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In Finnish language, Denmark is 'Tanska' and France is 'Ranska'.

THAT'S AN ONE LETTER DIFFERENCE!

I think this is someone we all should consider.

	27-02-2003 01:23									#49
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 As for the Iraqi people...what a horrible plight is theirs!

Yes, the fact that you destroyed their water purification plants is really hurting them.

	27-02-2003 01:25									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Yes, the fact that you destroyed their water purification plants is really hurting them.

I'm sure that it is. Cetainly their leadership had nothing to do with us doing that of course.

	27-02-2003 01:26									#51
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 For them to have a chance at true freedom and democratic rule is a tremendous boon. Unfortunately there are people around the world experiencing their same situation. The reason nothing is done for them militarily is National Sovereignty.

You are confusing 'freedom' with 'liberty'. Freedom *IS* National Souvereignity. Freedom of having your own government without outside interference is what the US are *trying to take away* from Iraq.

	27-02-2003 01:27									#52
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Cetainly their leadership had nothing to do with us doing that of course.

Their leadership is *NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS*.

	27-02-2003 01:41									#53
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quote: Yes, the fact that Bin Laden destroyed thetwin towers is really hurting Americans.

I'm sure that it is. Cetainly our leadership had nothing to do with them doing that of course.

(Sorry, I just had to take the bait . I hate it when civilian populations suffer from the decisions of their leaders, wherever they come from )

	27-02-2003 01:45									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune You are confusing 'freedom' with 'liberty'. Freedom *IS* National Souvereignity. Freedom of having your own government without outside interference is what the US are *trying to take away* from Iraq.

You are gravely confused. If that government was the choice of the Iraqi people , then that would be an exercise of their freedom. You are equating freedom with totalitarianism.

	27-02-2003 01:48									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Their leadership is *NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS*.

In principal I agree. However, when that leadership attacks my countries allies and threatens my home, it damn well becomes my business!

	27-02-2003 01:50									#56
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 You are equating freedom with totalitarianism.

You are confusing freedom with democracy.

And what Iraqis want, I am sure, is not so much 'democracy-American-style', a doubtful good at best, but a better life.

Such as they had before the sanctions.

	27-02-2003 01:53									#57
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 However, when that leadership attacks my countries allies and threatens my home, it damn well becomes my business!

Kuwait, when attacked, was not your ally. Saddam is not a threat. Even if he had Wommdies, he can´t reach you.

	27-02-2003 01:55									#58
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And what Iraqis want, I am sure, is not so much 'democracy-American-style', a doubtful good at best, but a better life.

Sure they want it. Everybody in the mideast does.

	27-02-2003 01:55									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune You are confusing freedom with democracy. And what Iraqis want, I am sure, is not so much 'democracy-American-style', a doubtful good at best, but a better life. Such as they had before the sanctions.

I am not proposing "democracy-American-style". I fail to understand how you equate freedom with oppression. Certainly the Iraqi's were "free" to NOT invade Kuwait, or were "free" to have followed the terms of the UN ceasefire that they signed. Or did you forget that these things CAUSED the sanctions?

	27-02-2003 01:57									#60
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More serious response to Plato now :

Actually, the aims of France and of the US are clearly different. For 12 years, nothing has been done. You can't argue peaceful solutions have been looked for, because simply no solutions have been looked for. Nobody cared about Iraq, except when US/UK occasionally bombed it.
The Bush admin brought Iraq back to the international frontstage, which is a good thing per se, because now countries are looking for solutions.

However, France and the US cannot agree on the same solution, simply because it doesn't agree on the problem. It is commonly said in France that the embargo did nothing but help Saddam to keep his gripe on power, and had the French been at the helm, all sanctions would have been lifted for years now.
France has been dragged into the crisis by the US insistance to revive it, and feels it has to take a stance. So, France provides solutions for the softest problem : disarming Saddam. The Bush admin want a regime change through war. These are 2 completely different goals, and 2 completely different ways to reach them.

I happen to exceptionally agree on the anti-war stance of my government (I oppose Chirac on about everything else), even if I know it is hypocritical and as self-interested as the US one.
If there is any morally "good" stance in this matter, it is the German position which seems to be the only one genuinely opposed to the incoming slaughter on principle.

I believe Saddam will comply to everything the UN / France demands, because the UN cannot demand more than disarming, and Saddam wants to keep his throne above all. Every time he cooperates with the inspectors, he gets more legitimacy in all countries who don't want his regime toppled through war (i.e everywhere except the US).
It is impossible to Saddam to comply to US demands, because it would mean to go into exile or commit suicide (literally).

Oh, and regarding "appeasement", please do not compare this here situation with appeasement. It has nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, NOTHING to do with it ! (sorry, I'm tired to write this every two posts). Read this very interesting article, and you will understand why : http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/...,898341,00.html (all point of views are represented, despite the article coming from the Guardian)