26-02-2003 17:51									#1
	Grog, our mighty warrior Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, perhaps it's time to centralize some ideas wrt to Grog. It's obvious that Vox would rather see him go, so they don't need to protect all their workers from him. It's also obvious that Grog is our best scout, not only to keep an eye on Vox (and his workers), but also to other civs that might sail down the coast towards our cities.

At first sight, we don't want to move him, Vox wants to, and we need to anticipate that in a few turns, they will simply demand his departure. How are we going to react to that, and what can we tell them to convince them to let Grog stay for as long as possible?

One thing to consider: if Grog would be retracted to behind our borders, Vox would keep less military around for protection. I'm not saying that as a result Vox will have less troops, but I assume they will use more troops on our borders, and less troops to spot for barbs. If they intend to keep their workers undefended in the middle of the jungle, while barbs can rise, it might not be a bad idea to let them do it.

DeepO

	26-02-2003 17:57									#2
	Put an end to popups!

One way to (try to) keep him there, is arguing that we need him there to track Lux from the other side...
(not the best arguement, but it should hold for a couple of extra turns).
-
Forgetting to move him is another way of going about it

	26-02-2003 18:57									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

yeah, but forgetting will piss them off, so we can't really use that for too long. It would only make them think it's okay to delay us as well...

If we want him to stay, we need to have a reason why we need him there, one which Vox can understand. Plus, we might want to think about compensation, as Vox has on scout in our territory (nor do we want them)..

DeepO

	26-02-2003 20:08									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by alva Forgetting to move him is another way of going about it

Let's leave these dirty tactics to Vox.
I'd rather tell them something along the lines of "we want to keep Grog in that position for the same reason that you want to keep [insert name of Vox warrior scout on the mountain] in his position. In either case, we can't be blamed for being paranoid about Lux Invicta, especially after the deal involving this infamous civ was enforced upon us".

	26-02-2003 20:51									#5
	Support Apolyton

I'd like to see them extend US a little trust by letting him be and not worrying about us stealing workers or any such thing. Damn. We go and set up this elaborate partnership, we accept their fait accompli w/regard to Lux's move without anger, and we put up with their constant "forgetting" to do things like give us contact and such...

-Arrian, defender of Grog

	26-02-2003 21:17									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I think Arrian is absolutely right. I'd like Vox to realize how much trust and tolerance we've put into them.

quote: grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

Right again!

	26-02-2003 22:20									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

We would argue that we need to keep him there- in order to monitor for galleys, as well as for anything suspicious Lux does.
We should also mention we have no hostile intentions whatsoever, what i'm sure Vox suspects of us- they won't demand us retreating him, but an understanding on this issue could strengthen the relationship.

	26-02-2003 22:39									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The galleys argument is weak. I suggest that we drop it, and focus on our right to monitor Lux's activities.
I also suggest that we mention something along the lines of "this treaty between Lux and yourselves has been rather enforced upon us. We feel that we have the right to monitor Lux's activities and make sure that this treaty is being kept and Lux isn't trying anything funny, especially considering that Lux has had a problematic past in terms of honoring agreements".

	26-02-2003 22:55									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I agree the galley argument is weak- but also that Lux will give Vox its techs (including the 4 "scientific" techs) is irrelevant- and it didn't make Vox jump of the chair and shout- "hey its irrelevant!"

What i mean is, that it thickens our case, on a first glimpse- we have two "self defense" arguments. If one is weak, than we shouldn't focus on it, but it doesn't necessarily mean we should drop it.

	26-02-2003 22:58									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think we need to pull Grog back after Vox founds another city or two (depending on exactly where they are). We're in a lot better shape militarily now that we have one barracks essentially finished and another one or two (depending on whether we leave Tempest on a barracks) underway, and we'll be building up a large cash reserve that could be used for emergency upgrades waiting for Vox to finish Philosophy. In any case, it's one thing to keep Grog where he is when no Voxian city is near him and quite another to keep him there when he's practically on top of a Voxian city.

Nathan

	26-02-2003 23:22									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by zeit What i mean is, that it thickens our case, on a first glimpse- we have two "self defense" arguments. If one is weak, than we shouldn't focus on it, but it doesn't necessarily mean we should drop it.

I disagree. I've been to several lectures on rhetorics, most of which revolved around the matter of how to properly convince someone. One of the most important things that I've learned is that adding weak arguments to support your point does not add more power to your stand; in fact, in most cases it will even set you back.
If a strong argument is coupled with a weaker one, it would appear as if the speaker does not put enough confidence in his stronger argument, so he decided to add another one, to strengthen his point; if it is a really weak argument, like in our case, it would also convey that the speaker is so uncertain of his point or stand, that he felt the need to add additional arguments, even if these are very weak and almost completely irrelevant.

	27-02-2003 00:13									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Shiber,

You're right regarding weakening one's agruement by mixing a strong case with a weak one. However, Vox is... well, frankly they're not too smart - look at their deal with Lux!

Anyway, I agree with Nathan: Grog stays for now, but once they plunk down a city that puts him in their territory... I think we must withdraw him.

-Arrian

	27-02-2003 00:25									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Never underestimate your enemies.
Vox is not stupid. Childish and hasty, yes, but not stupid. In any case, the rules of rhetorics apply to all men, especially to the dim-witted. Therefore, my suggestion to drop the weak argument and use only the strong one remains.

	27-02-2003 00:44									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Never underestimate your enemies. Vox is not stupid. Childish and hasty, yes, but not stupid. In any case, the rules of rhetorics apply to all men, especially to the dim-witted. Therefore, my suggestion to drop the weak argument and use only the strong one remains.

It applies to the dim-witted only if they realize that the argument is weak. But assuming that someone won't recognize a weak argument as weak is dangerous.

Regarding warning about galleys, Vox would certainly respond, "We can warn you if foreign galleys approach." So I can see that argument flying maybe a centimeter or so before it falls to the ground with a resounding thud. (Hmm, if we have a regular warrior we haven't gotten around to naming yet, Thud might be a good name for him. )

	27-02-2003 00:52									#15
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Isn't Thud the name of a member of the RP-team?

And Shiber is right.

Btw: I just thought of something. You can't an embassy while at war, can you?
So that's not a bad thing, and something we shouldn't mention to Vox.

Last edited by alva on 27-02-2003 at 01:48

	27-02-2003 00:54									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Better not name units after members of the other teams (Thud is a member of RP IIRC). What if they see them? What are we supposed to say then?
"Uhh, we were just thought that, uhh, it would be kinda, uhh, funny, if we, uhh, well..."

	27-02-2003 01:19									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Alva: embassies: we should mention this to Lux, but I doubt that RP wouldn't establish an embassy, and act as a scout for ND and GoW.

Re: galley argument: is it so weak? Grog gives us an advance warning of multiple turns for any galley coming from the North, I think that's important.

I'm half willing to accept that Vox can be trusted enough for us to retreat Grog, and Lux could be monitored a lot better with Grog on the road to Lux, instead of on lookout ridge. I also can imagine that it worries Lux to have a warrior this close, indeed, a road is easily pillaged.

I was thinking on perhaps making a deal with Vox:
- First of all we clearly state all reasons why we would want him there (galleys, Lux and Vox(in that order of importance))
- Second we give them some way of destroying him, by e.g. saying we think it is ok if they positioned an immortal on the road North of Grog. If we move Grog without previous consent, they're able to destroy him without us ever treathening workers or improvements.
- Third, we can ask to quell our fears, by not accepting any immortals South of Grog, and warning us when a foreign galley is visible from the Voxian home land.

I agree it's kind of strange, but if we give them the means to get rid of Grog if he doesn't behave, maybe they will permit him to stay considerably longer. And by asking for the third part of the deal, we might get some recon after Grog is forced to move to prevent him from staying in Vox cultural borders.

DeepO

	27-02-2003 01:27									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

According to Vox, they don't have their iron hooked up yet, which would mean they don't have immortals yet.

	27-02-2003 01:55									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Alva: embassies: we should mention this to Lux, but I doubt that RP wouldn't establish an embassy, and act as a scout for ND and GoW.

I know, but at least we lower the chances of it happening. We can hardly ask Lux to declare war on RP, just so they would be able to open one

Another point: What happens, if we were to open one with Lux.
1. We open one now,
2. Lux moves to Lego island
3. Lux gets a new capital
4. ?( do we get a free view of their new capital for example?)
I'm not suggesting we should do this, just curious

	27-02-2003 02:27									#20
	Support Apolyton

I also thought about opening embassies, but really, it serves not much good right now. The only thing we possibly gain from it, as long as we're not going to invest cities (we can't see) is to know the exact territory around the capital. I don't know whether that view moves, or not, but there is no point in establishing an embassy with Lux now, instead of after they moved, nor with any other team. Let other teams pay for the embassy if they want to. We don't need it

DeepO

	27-02-2003 02:37									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

DeepO,

Establishing an embassy will show the size of the capitol, the terrain & improvements (hence its production/commerce) the allocation of commerce to tax/science/luxury, what they are building and what resources and luxuries they have access to.

So it's not entirely useless. And if we're going to be going 0% research for a few turns, it may be a good idea to establish embassies with ND and Roleplay, maybe GoW too.

-Arrian

	27-02-2003 02:43									#22
	Suffering from ads?

That's not my point. My point is that the 21-tile map will show on both sides, so not only do we gain intelligence, we lose secrecy... and we could possible gain the map information by a Luxian world map anyhow, so I consider the loss too great atm; we would only gain a little inside information on their empire.

DeepO

	27-02-2003 02:47									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

No, I don't think it shows both sides. Only the side paying for the embassy gets to see inside the capitol of the other civ.

-Arrian

	27-02-2003 02:51									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Arrian, apparently in MP games, it works both ways.

In the euro PBEM I recently established one with DeepO. after that he could see my city too

	27-02-2003 03:43									#25
	Got spare money?

Alva also established an embassy with me, so I also have the opportunity to see his capital.

	27-02-2003 05:24									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yeah, if it wasn't like that, we would be best to establish emassies everywhere, so that others have no map information on our capital. But indeed, I was rather surprised to see Alva's capital at once in the the Euro PBEM, and right now, I think I was lucky: let Alva see my capital, if I can see his and don't need to pay anything for it I'm fine. I'm sure Nathan is less eager to establish an embassy in that game now that he knows this, and I'm certainly not interested in paying for his view

BTW, I never noticed it in SP games, but it's quite likely that this hasn't changed. I sure as hell would think it would make the MP games deeper if Firaxis changes it in a one-way view.

DeepO

	27-02-2003 19:08									#27
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

If the AI establishes an embassy with me in a SP game, I don't get to see their capitol. The only embassy I've established in MP play was a PBEM game with a friend of mine, and he didn't mention that he got to see my capitol (fat lot of good that did him, though ). Interesting... and silly. Why pay for the embassy, then?

I could see working out a deal with a civ with whom you wish to ally that you split the cost of the embassy just so you can get one up and running. Otherwise, there is no advantage at all to the civ that foots the bill.

Dumb.

-Arrian

	27-02-2003 19:31									#28
	Support Apolyton

It does sound like a bug doesn't it.
When the patch comes out I'll open one with Alex (euro-pbem) to see if anything changed.

	27-02-2003 19:37									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I know Soren might be lurking here, but do we know if Firaxis are aware of this bug (if indeed it is one). If not I suppose NYE could mention it in one of his playtesting reports, or something...

	27-02-2003 21:17									#30
	Put an end to popups!

Arrian, there is a mini advantage, but in my eyes certainly not worth the cost: you see the gold reserve, tech spending, and city view of the capital. But that is hardly worth the cash...

OTOH, if establishing an embassy would mean that others can't do it with you, it would become a race towards first establishing embassies just to prevent spoiling map information to possible enemies, so this is a lot more fun. I really hope Firaxis changes it.

DeepO