27-02-2003 06:33									#61
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Poor Chris. In all honesty, I think we would take your arguements more seriously here if you didn't always try to flame, insult, antagonize, etc. everyone who has a different viewpoint than you.

Without that, Chris wouldnt' be able to post at all.

	27-02-2003 06:44									#62
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Well, the way I see it, she has the right to do that. But, it's her own choice, and if she willingfully disses the flag in front of lots of soldiers, she must take the kaka for doing it. If that happened to me, I'd take that as personal insult, for her to come my place, and then diss the flag and what it stands for and therefore disses every soldier in there.. I think she could have chosen a better place to practise her rights. Some would say it was the best place, I say it was the worst place, because it offended people and their work. She could have made special deal this time and just shut her eyes and not listen the song and think of dying children or something. Bad taste.

I wouldn't go to gays'r'us to promote hetero life and say you're all wrong and sick. Even if it was my right. If I believed in my message, I would instead try to get my word out in a different place, and not to attack 'the wrong doers' directly. That would be bad taste too. Nah, I think I lost my point.

	27-02-2003 06:50									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I wouldn't go to gays'r'us to promote hetero life and say you're all wrong and sick. Even if it was my right. If I believed in my message, I would instead try to get my word out in a different place, and not to attack 'the wrong doers' directly. That would be bad taste too. Nah, I think I lost my point.

Terrible analogy. If you went to a gay rights rally, and if before the rally started they made everyone stand up and proclaim themselves gay and proud and give a big ol' kiss to the queer next to them, would you want to join in? And if you chose not to by just standing in silence, and everyone started jeering you and telling you that you were a traitor and you should just leave the country, would you consider that a just response to your silent refusal?

I sure wouldn't.

	27-02-2003 06:50									#64
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Besides, if I was unhappy about the direction my country was about to take, or not to take, I still would not disrespect the flag. I would disrespect the leaders, the people who made the decisions and took courses I didn't like. It would be their fault, not the flags, or the ideals the country stands for. Different people have different America. This girl is worried about some things America is not doing for their citizens, and are doing outside the US. So, she believes in America that is about justice and fairness and all that, with her own idea of those concepts. Why would she still disrespect the flag, and not the Bush administration? I think it's always cool to not like some leader, but it's a different thing to pull stunts like that. And if she doesn't see the difference, then why won't she leave the country then? That's what I'm planning of doing in the near future (I hope) too.. and still I'm not dissing the flag.

But sure, I still wouldn't attack this girl and shout her, I'd just leave her alone with her bad taste.

	27-02-2003 06:51									#65
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Boris, I admit. It doesn't work like I said.. You're right, I was wrong.

	27-02-2003 07:05									#66
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The KKK is a better analogy... always .

--

Oh, and I hope Boris and Chris stop going 'bezerker' on us .

	27-02-2003 07:08									#67
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ok ok ok ok.. all I meant to say was that she has a right to do that I guess, and people have right to response to her act. I'm not trying to defend anyone, it's stupid to shout at her anyway.. But I'd like to point out, that she knew where she was and still did it, so she accepted getting bashed then. You have to pick up the right battles to win the war!

	27-02-2003 07:10									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Oh, and I hope Boris and Chris stop going 'bezerker' on us .

I will parse him 'round the Cape, 'round the Horn, and through Perdition's Flames!

	27-02-2003 07:16									#69
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I come from a country where it is now illegal to boo the national anthem. Consider yourself lucky only to be attacked by thugs when you disrespect national symbols, rather than the police

More seriously, the people who told her to go home were jerks, but I don't see how it endangers free speech in the US. As long as there are no laws to forbid dissent, it is up to dissenters to organize against the rising bigotry : they have the right to.

A good ideological shift is what America needs, not an anti-insult law.

	27-02-2003 07:27									#70
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quote: Originally posted by GePap she cou;ld have done somehting confrontational, like worn some shirt with some logo, and not just this gesture.

Even if she didnt predict the intensity of the response, what she's doing is pretty confrontational for this time and place.

All Smith and Carlos did was wear one glove and raise it during the national anthem. It was a simple act, but it stirred a lot of blood on both sides.

	27-02-2003 07:32									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The KKK is a better analogy... always .

I hear they have some pretty good BBQ picnics.









Foodwise anyways.

	27-02-2003 07:36									#73
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I have been not standing up for the national anthem nor reciting them for quite a long time and nobody really says anything to me. Why don't I get any publicity?

Oh yeah because in my case, I'm just too lazy to get up, not because I have some cool statement to make.

The situation sounds alot like the book, the Chocolate War.

	27-02-2003 07:38									#74
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH All Smith and Carlos did was wear one glove and raise it during the national anthem. It was a simple act, but it stirred a lot of blood on both sides.

Erm, can anyone explain the stroy to an ignorant Cheese-eating-surrender-monkey please ?

	27-02-2003 07:38									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Boris, I admit. It doesn't work like I said.. You're right, I was wrong.

My respect for Pekka just increased ten folds. You dont see people in forums admiting that they are wrong often.

	27-02-2003 07:41									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II My respect for Pekka just increased ten folds. You dont see people in forums admiting that they are wrong often.

Especially since victory was mine!

	27-02-2003 07:42									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I come from a country where it is now illegal to boo the national anthem. Consider yourself lucky only to be attacked by thugs when you disrespect national symbols, rather than the police

Because "ignorant Cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys" suck!

quote: More seriously, the people who told her to go home were jerks, but I don't see how it endangers free speech in the US. As long as there are no laws to forbid dissent, it is up to dissenters to organize against the rising bigotry : they have the right to. A good ideological shift is what America needs, not an anti-insult law.

Well its not a extreme enough to NEED a anti-insult law, but if you ever read the chocolate war, those boys didn't HAVE TO sell the chocolates, but thats what they did. It's sort of a mob pysch.

	27-02-2003 07:43									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Especially since victory was mine!

i didnt even know what the arguement was... (i just found the thread and now im gonna jack it! j/k)

	27-02-2003 07:47									#79
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quote: Erm, can anyone explain the stroy to an ignorant Cheese-eating-surrender-monkey please ?

During the Olympics (I forget which one, but in the 70s, IIRC), two black Americans won Gold and Silver. When the anthem was being played, they raised their arms in a 'Black Power' salute. The IOC reprimanded them, because you aren't allowed to make political statements at the Olympics.

	27-02-2003 07:49									#80
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ok thx

	27-02-2003 08:23									#81
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It was the 1968 Summer Olympics in Mexico City.

	27-02-2003 17:19									#82
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This looks like a reasonable summary of the events and repercussions.

	27-02-2003 17:58									#83
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People say stupid things all the time. Many of them are stated or repeated here on this forum. "Get out of the country!" is perhaps as bad as likening the U.S. to a fascist state, as MRT did on page one of this thread. The peace protests recently had much more of this sort of hyperbole to the point of self-parody than all the cases of "love it or leave it" put together over the last several years. None of it convinces anyone of anything more than the righteousness of their long held opinions. Nothing is learned, no real communication takes place. The only possible benefit is that people can vent a little, but the cost is high.

	01-03-2003 04:28									#84
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Just out of curiosity--

When, where, and why did this rather strange and out-of-place tradition of singing the national anthem at sporting events start? (Olympics obviously not included.)

Does this happen at sporting events in other countries? Do they play "O Canada" before the Alouettes take on the Roughriders? Or "God Save the Queen" before Man U takes on... um... some other British soccer team?

This question has really bothered me for a long time.

	01-03-2003 05:33									#85
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Hello all... Taking a few moments to catch up on poly..

After reading this thread full of twists and turns and a few words of wisdom from Sava, I have yet to get exactly what is the problem here.

It appears that

She protested what she felt was some sort of shortcomming in US policy by turning her back on the flag during the National Anthem. And when people expressed their displeasure with it, she was shocked that people were offended and actually had the audacity to let her know about it.

Boris seems to say that they were acting in a less than sophisticated manner. *wonders if Boris has met many young Marines*

Monk seems to be lost in his Commie induced fantasy land (again) by saying that she is a maiden of virtue and the Marines are hunched back orcs ready to devour all that is good with what is left with the rights we have.

Imran, Dissident, et al seems to be insinuating that the girl should actually take responsiblity and accept the cosequences of her actions. (perhaps if she wanted to protest without the hassel of people responding, she should have joined the virtual protest.)

Michael the Great seems to have been ignored again because who wants to argue with someone that will tell you how it is.

Chris seems to have got himself caught in a two front war with GePap and Boris (with monk and sava sniping from the safety of the trees.) but still holding his own.

All in all a very silly thread especially given the title.

	01-03-2003 05:49									#86
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heh it always makes me laugh that such things could only happen in America ( j/k )

In England, we sing the national anthem before an England football match but certainly not before the start of a Liverpool match ( we sing "You'll never walk alone" before & after instead )

If someone chose not to sing, that would be their choice and no-one would give them stick for that and ditto if they chose to not face the union jack ( naturally that would have to be after we all went insane and felt the need to hang up our flag everywhere* )

Surely instead of arguing whether people have the right to protest, we should discuss just how far you can go to protest/counter-protest. Or would that reduce the fun for the trollers?

*I understand Americans are very patriotic but it really does seem OTT at times. I'm fiercely patriotric too but I'd never think to build a flagpole outside my house & raise/lower the flag at dawn & dusk, or pledge my allegiance daily, etc.. I would like to know why you guys do - i.e. I'm not trying to troll but would be interested in how the different mindset came about

	01-03-2003 06:18									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Boris seems to say that they were acting in a less than sophisticated manner. *wonders if Boris has met many young Marines*

Heaven forbid our armed services personel conduct themselves in an appropriate manner.

quote: Chris seems to have got himself caught in a two front war with GePap and Boris (with monk and sava sniping from the safety of the trees.) but still holding his own.

If that's what you call holding one's own, I'd hate to see what you call utter defeat!

	01-03-2003 06:32									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Heaven forbid our armed services personel conduct themselves in an appropriate manner. !

They are just like a lot 18-25 year old male. The most significant thing in their lives up to this point has been their miltary training. I probably would have jeered her too if I was that age and just got off duty or a training exercise. Now I'd simply shrug my shoulders and check out her ass. That or wonder how in hell I was talked into seeing a womens basketball game.

	01-03-2003 06:35									#89
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I'll never know how people get so worked up watching a basketball game.

"Oh look we scored again! wahoo!"
"Oh no they scored again! damn!"
"Oh look we scored again! wahoo!"
"Oh no they scored again! damn!"
"Oh look we scored again! wahoo!"
"Oh no they scored again! damn!"
"Oh look we scored again! wahoo!"
"Oh no they scored again! damn!"
"Oh look we scored again! wahoo!"

mebbe I'm missing something of the finer issues but when the points scored are 100 - 98, it's kinda hard to get worked up over another 2pts.

	01-03-2003 07:07									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Demerzel I'll never know how people get so worked up watching a basketball game. "Oh look we scored again! wahoo!" "Oh no they scored again! damn!" "Oh look we scored again! wahoo!" "Oh no they scored again! damn!" "Oh look we scored again! wahoo!" "Oh no they scored again! damn!" "Oh look we scored again! wahoo!" "Oh no they scored again! damn!" "Oh look we scored again! wahoo!" mebbe I'm missing something of the finer issues but when the points scored are 100 - 98, it's kinda hard to get worked up over another 2pts.

The last two to three minutes are the most exciting. It's like NASCAR, they go around and around for a long time but it's the last 10-15 laps that are of any excitement.