26-02-2003 21:08									#1
	Has the right to dissent in this country vanished since 9/11? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Reading this article has caused me to think that perhaps it is so. There are many other examples of course.
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A Silent Protest on the Basketball Court
by Janet Paskin

NEWBURGH — Fans packed the stands before the women's basketball game at Mount St. Mary College last night. They held flags. And they waited.

They got what they came for. As Mount St. Mary student Sara Klemeshefsky sang "The Star-Spangled Banner,'' Manhattanville's Toni Smith turned to the side, away from the American flag, and faced the floor.

She held tight the hand of freshman teammate Dionne Walker. When the anthem was done, Walker gave Smith a hug.

Smith has made the same quiet quarter-turn all season, usually without incident. But on Feb. 11, the team traveled to the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy, where more than 300 flag-waving midshipmen greeted Smith with chants of "U-S-A" and "Leave our country." Since then, word has spread.

The Mount St. Mary student government spent more than $100 on small flags and handed them out before the game. More than 500 filled the small gym and jeered Smith at every opportunity. Smith picked up two fouls in the first 2:16 and sat the rest of the half, prompting a dissatisfied crowd to chant, "We want Toni." The crowd dwindled by halftime and quieted, more interested in the two-point game that Mount St. Mary won, 67-65. The remaining fans stood and sang "God Bless America" as the clock ran out.

"It's disgraceful," said Mount St. Mary junior Jess Varvatsas, who wore a Stars and Stripes halter top and brought a flag to the gym. "I'm against the war, but the flag stands for more than war."

They, like everyone else, assumed that Smith turns away to protest America's march toward the war with Iraq. That's part of it, Smith said in a written statement.

"For some time now, the inequalities that are embedded into the American system have bothered me," Smith wrote. "As they are becoming progressively worse and it is clear that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power, I cannot, in good conscience, salute the flag."

Until last night, Smith had kept her rationale to herself. She refused to discuss her views with the media and Manhattanville President Richard Berman, who offered Smith a hug and words of support early in the season.

"I told her I think what she's doing is courageous and difficult," said Berman, who protested the Vietnam War while a student at Michigan in the 1960s. "But that in this community we respect one another's views, and whether I agree or disagree is irrelevant. I asked her if she wanted to talk about the issues, and she said no."

In Smith's online profile, which is linked to the team's roster, Smith posted two quotes: "If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything" and "It will be a great day when our schools get all the money they need and the military has to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber."

Smith's refusal to face the flag, however, went unnoticed until some players and their parents mentioned it to first-year coach Shawn Lincoln. He spoke with Smith, then held a team meeting.

"The team is like any other collection of people," Lincoln said. "Everybody has their own beliefs and opinions, and we're no different."

Lincoln refused to discuss the team's reaction.

That was the end of the issue internally for the team, which, at 15-9, has proceeded to have one of the best seasons in the history of Manhattanville women's basketball.

But Smith's protest did not fade into the background for opponents. By a fluke of scheduling, Manhattanville played Skyline conference rival St. Joseph's twice in a week. Three of St. Joseph's players have friends or family in active military service, and after the second game, St. Joseph's Christine Argentina yelled at Smith.

"After the game, we were walking down the line, and my point guard called her a jerk and (said) 'You've got a lot of nerve' and got in her face," said St. Joseph's coach Dennis Case, whose son, Dwayne, is with the Merchant Marine in the Mediterranean Sea.

"I supported her," Case said of Argentina, whose brother is in the Middle East. "If Toni Smith has First Amendment rights to not face the flag, then my point guard has First Amendment rights to tell her what she thinks of that. Under no circumstances would I ever reprimand her for that."

Argentina's comments were mild compared to what Smith faced at USMMA six days later. More than 300 midshipmen packed the stands, a record turnout for the winless Mariners. The fans hung flags from the rafters, waved them in the stands and wrapped them around their shoulders. During "The Star-Spangled Banner," Smith looked at the floor — the only place in the gym that wasn't red, white and blue. At halftime, 50 plebes (freshmen), each carrying a flag, marched into the gym and stood across from the Valiants' bench. They stayed there until the game was over.

"Every time she got a ball, (the fans) were yelling and waving their flags," USMMA sports information director Kim McNulty said. "We were proud of the professionalism with which the midshipmen displayed their feelings. They did nothing to offend or make the game an unsafe atmosphere. They were expressing their opinion."

Smith has stood firm in the face of her detractors. In her statement, she wrote, "It is my right as an American to stand for my beliefs the way others have done against me. ... Patriotism can be shown in many ways, but those who choose to do so by saluting the flag should recognize that the American flag stands for individuality and freedom. Therefore, any true patriot must acknowledge and respect my right to be different."
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It is amazing how much hatred and vitrol one encounters in this country for showing even the slightest willingness to second-guess the government. All I can say is, God bless this girl, God bless her. Her courage in the face of such tremendous ignorance and hatred will one day be greatly rewarded.

	26-02-2003 21:12									#2
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So wait... you have the right to dissent, but you don't have the right to dissent to that dissent?

Please, at least be consistant.

	26-02-2003 21:12									#3
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"But on Feb. 11, the team traveled to the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy, where more than 300 flag-waving midshipmen greeted Smith with chants of "U-S-A" and "Leave our country." Since then, word has spread. "

So the stupid bint goes to a marine academy and disses that which they have dedicated a portion of their lives to, and now doesn't understand why they're pissed at her?

Conversely, don't the marines have a right to protest as well?

	26-02-2003 21:13									#4
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facism rears its ugly head. i weep for america

	26-02-2003 21:15									#5
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Just because you hold an unpopular opinion doesn't mean everyone will be nice about it.

Most everyone I know on the gringo side of the border has plenty to say about the Bush administration, the war with Iraq, Afghanistan, the economy, etc. Maybe it's how the message is delivered.

	26-02-2003 21:15									#6
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There's a difference between protesting what you consider to be injustice, and protesting other people expressing their opinions. Shouting at people with whom you disagree to "leave our country" is repugnant. Free speech, yes, but dispicable nonetheless.

I think this girl has a lot more courage than those shouting marines do. Perhaps someone should remind them of the American ideals they are supposedly fighting to protect.

	26-02-2003 21:20									#7
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So if people are rude to participants in a Klan rally or a Neo-nazi rally, that's a bad thing?

Or is it just left-leaning forms of "dissent" or "protest" or whatever you want to call it that should be treated with deference?

	26-02-2003 21:22									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So wait... you have the right to dissent, but you don't have the right to dissent to that dissent? Please, at least be consistant.

I'll bite Imran. Obviously the problem is the nature of the anti-dissenters who respond with absolute hatred and vitrol, which is absolutely unacceptable for a country that prides itself in it's right to free speech. For example, if someone refused to rise for the national anthem at a baseball game, they would receive harsh verbal abuse, and possibly even physical violence. There is no counter-measure to this, there are no dissenters who verbally or physically abuse the people who are anti-dissenters simply because the anti-dissenters make up the better part of the society. This therefore effectively bullies dissidents to kowtow to the official government line at the point of a proverbial sword.

	26-02-2003 21:23									#9
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to them i would simply say "i do not agree with what you say but i support your right to say it."

	26-02-2003 21:25									#10
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I don't recall ever saying the Klan or Neo-Nazis didn't have a right to express their opinions.

It's using a rusty old canard to throw out the "leftists only want their own speech protected!" line, especially considering that the ACLU, as leftist as organization as can be, has consistently fought for the protection of all speech, including right wing dogma.

	26-02-2003 21:31									#11
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quote: Obviously the problem is the nature of the anti-dissenters who respond with absolute hatred and vitrol, which is absolutely unacceptable for a country that prides itself in it's right to free speech.

Actually it is part and parcel of free speech. You have the free speach RIGHT to respond with anger and vitrol to someone's dissent. That is what free speech is about too, you know.

Is it unacceptable for people to respond with hatred and vitrol against someone who says 'September 11th was justified'?

	26-02-2003 21:32									#12
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It was just a simple question. Gee, no need to get so defensive.

Seriously, though, some forms of "free speech" are inflammatory, and will provoke an emotional reaction from other people around - whether it's a flag-burning, or a cross-burning.

It's melodramatic as hell (which seems to me to be more a province of the left than the right, I hear a lot more whiny lefties than righties, maybe it's the John Wayne syndrome ), to talk about losing "the right" to dissent or to free speech because of an emotional reaction by some of the people exposed to that speech.

It's not like she's arrested, charged with sedition, firebombed out of her house, blacklisted by the government, or whatever - she protested in a way that a lot of individuals found offensive, so they reacted emotionally. A lot of symbolic protest is intended to do just that, whether it's from the right or from the left.

	26-02-2003 21:47									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Obviously the problem is the nature of the anti-dissenters who respond with absolute hatred and vitrol, which is absolutely unacceptable for a country that prides itself in it's right to free speech. Actually it is part and parcel of free speech. You have the free speach RIGHT to respond with anger and vitrol to someone's dissent. That is what free speech is about too, you know.

Of course, however, this is a simplistic approach that ignores the reality of the situation we face. Fear of slander or physical violence creates a sword which forces one to kowtow to the forces of mainstream thought. Having the right to free speech is irrelevent when one is too frightened of the consequences of actually using it. To put things in a perspective you may be more sympathetic to, imagine another world where people who espoused capitalist beliefs were immediately attacked, physically or verbally, by patriots proud of their socialist heritage. Would you so enthusiastically embrace these anti-dissenters?

quote: Is it unacceptable for people to respond with hatred and vitrol against someone who says 'September 11th was justified'?

In a word, no. It's not unacceptable. You may not agree, but these people are entitled to their opinions, just as fascists and KKK members are.

	26-02-2003 22:03									#14
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Monkspider: I don't see where she was threatened with physical violence.

Furthermore, I support her right to her opinion and her willingness to express it. I encourage her to vocally stand up for her beliefs.

I also support my right to vocally express my absolute and total disagreement with them.

In America, it is our differences, and our courage to state them that makes us great.

	26-02-2003 22:06									#15
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I dont see whats so offensive about it. Its not like shes burning a flag (or something similar).

"For some time now, the inequalities that are embedded into the American system have bothered me," Smith wrote. "As they are becoming progressively worse and it is clear that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power, I cannot, in good conscience, salute the flag."

While I disagree with her comment, I applaud the fact that she appears to be literate, has a moral opinion, and is willing to stand up for it.

"It's disgraceful," said Mount St. Mary junior Jess Varvatsas, who wore a Stars and Stripes halter top and brought a flag to the gym.

It used to be that stars and stripes clothing was 'disgraceful' too.

	26-02-2003 22:56									#16
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat So if people are rude to participants in a Klan rally or a Neo-nazi rally, that's a bad thing?

Oh dear. MtG shows his true colours...

	26-02-2003 22:58									#17
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Nah, you can still protest, you just get insulted by the large collective voice of stupidity in this country.

	26-02-2003 23:23									#18
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at SpencerH.

While there is freedon of speech, and you can't silence those screaming at this girl, there is a basic difference. She is not screaming out something while the anthem is sung, or burning flags, or anyting at all: She is simply making a silent and diginified show of her opinion. If these people wan tot make a counter protest, then hold and American flag and wave it silently, period. That is a correct and equally as dignified an act. To scream and denounce her for her act, while still speech, is NOT the same thing, anymore than a sonnet fo Shakespear and the script of some porn movie, while both pieces of writing, are equal.

quote: It's disgraceful," said Mount St. Mary junior Jess Varvatsas, who wore a Stars and Stripes halter top and brought a flag to the gym.

Where they out of edible red white and blue panties?

	26-02-2003 23:41									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Oh dear. MtG shows his true colours...

Which colors are those?

Or are you suggesting that the next time the Klan stages a cross-burning in a predominately black area, all the locals should be nice and polite and respectful, since it's just free speech? It would be nice if the world worked that way, but different symbolic expressions of political views are things are emotional triggers to different audiences.

If my "true colours" are that I don't have much sympathy for mountain out of a molehill exaggerations about lost "rights" by the left, then yep, that's the case.

All over the US last week, tens or hundreds of thousands of people peacefully demonstrated their opposition to a war with Iraq (which I also oppose, albeit for much different reasons than most on the left), with very few problems - none at all in most areas.

So one individual feeling picked on because she triggered an emotional reaction from the audience of her symbolic protest really doesn't get me all in a tizzy. Sorry 'bout that.

	26-02-2003 23:57									#20
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That young woman can do whatever the hell she pleases do, and that holds true for her detractors as well. I draw the line, however, if it escalates beyond exchanges of words. IOW, no violence. That's a red line.

People can agree to disagree w/o having to draw blood.

Gatekeeper

	26-02-2003 23:58									#21
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Flags r gay.

	26-02-2003 23:59									#22
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She has a first amendment right to decent (however misguided)

People have a first amendment right to decent AGAINST HER.

Either you support both, or neither, so some of you should climb off those high horses, you look like hypocritical jackasses.

	27-02-2003 00:03									#23
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There is a difference between "dissent" and saying "get out of the USA if you disagree with me." The former is a legitimate expression of disagreement. The latter is a confrontational and, yes, aggressive way of trying to silence an opinion with which one disagrees.

One should disagree without resorting to name-calling or telling the other side to shut up.

	27-02-2003 00:03									#24
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Haven't you learned to stop use that word against others yet?

	27-02-2003 00:09									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov There is a difference between "dissent" and saying "get out of the USA if you disagree with me."

I disgree Boris, there is NO difference,

quote: The former is a legitimate expression of disagreement. The latter is a confrontational and, yes, aggressive way of trying to silence an opinion with which one disagrees.

Her way is FAR more confrontational.
She could wait in the locker room untill after the National antheme is played, she CHOSES to make a spectical of herself.
It's both or neither, oterwise, you only support freedom of expression for her.

quote: One should disagree without resorting to name-calling or telling the other side to shut up.

Or infuriating an arena full of sports fans.

	27-02-2003 00:17									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I disgree Boris, there is NO difference,

I believe there IS and I CAN use CAPS as MUCH as YOU, TOO.

quote: Her way is FAR more confrontational.

Bullshit. She's not yelling at anyone, not telling anyone they should leave their country, not doing anything except standing in silence.

quote: She could wait in the locker room untill after the National antheme is played, she CHOSES to make a spectical of herself.

Spectacle? She just turns around. That's not a spectacle. And she does it there because she is making the statement publicly. Protest is hardly effective if done privately.

quote: It's both or neither, oterwise, you only support freedom of expression for her.

Except that, as I already stated, I'm not saying the marines/fans couldn't express themselves, I was just stating my opinion that doing so in that manner was crass, undignified and repugnant.

quote: Or infuriating an arena full of sports fans.

If someone standing in silence infuriates fans, those fans have serious anger management issues that need to be dealt with by a trained mental health professional. If they don't like her protest, they should just say so (politely), stand and sing the national anthem as loud as they want and then ignore her.

	27-02-2003 00:25									#27
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How could the player stay in the locker room, specially she is a starter? She has to be out there.

Boris, you won't get very far: people who disagree with what she has done will not fogive her, or admit that there is a difference between a silent act of personal protest, and yelling out that she is disloyal. Both are acts of speech, yes, but F*ck you and I love you are both expressions ending in "you", and they are not the same.

MtG:
Its fine if you don't care, the probem is saying that the ones screaming at her to stop are on the same level as what she is doing. All speech is protected, but all speech is not equal. If they want to counter protest, sit there waving a flag in a dignified, solemn manner. What else do you need to do?

	27-02-2003 00:30									#28
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Perhaps she oughtta pay a little more respect to the government that allows her to play bad Division-3 women's college basketball on a scholarship.

...

That's a JOKE, people!

	27-02-2003 00:34									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I believe there IS and I CAN use CAPS as MUCH as YOU, TOO.

You have a first ammendment right to use all the caps you like.

quote: Bullshit.

Not at all, you seem to say SHE has rights and THEY don't.

quote: She's not yelling at anyone, not telling anyone they should leave their country, not doing anything except standing in silence.

Many find her actions FAR more offensive then any yelling done at her.
Do you not see that they are allowed their rights also?
You can SAY whatever you like in this country Boris, not pick and chose the method.

quote: Spectacle?

Yes, spectacle.

quote: She just turns around.

They just yell at her.

quote: That's not a spectacle.

That time is put aside for the national antheme, at a sporting event.
To stage a protest is to make a mockery of what is intended.

quote: And she does it there because she is making the statement publicly.

So are people yelling at here.

quote: Protest is hardly effective if done privately.

If she protests, they have THE SAME RIGHT to protest her.

quote: Except that, as I already stated, I'm not saying the marines/fans couldn't express themselves, I was just stating my opinion that doing so in that manner was crass, undignified and repugnant.

They view her protest THE EXACT SAME WAY.

quote: If someone standing in silence infuriates fans, those fans have serious anger management issues that need to be dealt with by a trained mental health professional.

A total cop-out of a comment.
Anyone that doesn't protest the way YOU appove of needs mental heath.
What a strawman argument that is.
You will notice, I don't agree with her, but i don't say that she needs a doctor.

quote: If they don't like her protest, they should just say so (politely), stand and sing the national anthem as loud as they want and then ignore her.

In other words, people can only protest in ways YOU approve of.

	27-02-2003 00:34									#30
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Womens basketball.....