27-02-2003 21:33									#61
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quote: Milosevic, who was indicted for genocide by the UN.

yeah indicted... and after a year of trying to present a case... the UN has none. You know why? Because there isn't any evidence, because there was no genocide.

	28-02-2003 01:50									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Edan And the guerilla attacks were condemned (and the groups were later dismantled) by the mainstream of Jews in Israel.

This is not my point. My point is that, without those attacks, there would be no Israel.

	28-02-2003 02:11									#63
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That's not correct. Jewish militancy, which, as said before, overwhelmingly targetted military installations, played a rather secondary part in Britain's decisions. There were much better reasons for it's decision to let the UN decide, and the subsequent partition plan.

	28-02-2003 02:15									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel There were much better reasons for it's decision to let the UN decide, and the subsequent partition plan.

There were?

	28-02-2003 02:33									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune This is not my point. My point is that, without those attacks, there would be no Israel.

No they weren't. The creation of Israel was pretty much inevitable by the time of the Peel commisions report in the 1930s, IMO - with the only other alternative being a binational state which had little support amoung the Jews and no support amoung the Arabs. At best, the attacks may have sped up the process, but I think the outcome of the holocaust did that to a far greater degree.

	28-02-2003 02:58									#66
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Are the attacks Palestinian groups make on military targets, such as blowing up tanks and sniping foot soldiers, also guerilla warfare and therefore 'legitimate'? I don't see the Israelis treating these attacks any differently from attacks that target civilians.

	28-02-2003 03:06									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Are the attacks Palestinian groups make on military targets, such as blowing up tanks and sniping foot soldiers, also guerilla warfare and therefore 'legitimate'?

IMO? I think they deserve to be condemned (and the groups that commit them should be sidelined) just as the attacks in the 40s were - since they don't follow the rules of war. However, guerilla attacks against military targets are a lot less morally reprehsable than terrorist attacks against civilians.

quote: I don't see the Israelis treating these attacks any differently from attacks that target civilians.

They're treating it as they would a war. Which isn't suprising, since it pretty much is one - only where the other side hides behind civilians and wear civilian clothes.

	28-02-2003 03:09									#68
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Different situation: Britain objected to create independent states.

	28-02-2003 03:17									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Different situation: Britain objected to create independent states.

Indeed. The Palestinians would have already had a state if Arafat was serious about peace, and they could still have a state if they use the most important weaponry they have available to them: Dialogue.

	28-02-2003 03:24									#70
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quote: IMO? I think they deserve to be condemned (and the groups that commit them should be sidelined) just as the attacks in the 40s were - since they don't follow the rules of war. However, guerilla attacks against military targets are a lot less morally reprehsable than terrorist attacks against civilians.

Israel isn't exactly squeaky clean when it comes to obeying the rules of war. In any case, it is impossible for the Palestinians to fight a 'fair' war against Israeli forces. You seem to arguing that the Palestinians should roll over and play dead, something that is inconceivable from a Palestinian point of view.

quote: They're treating it as they would a war. Which isn't suprising, since it pretty much is one - only where the other side hides behind civilians and wear civilian clothes.

Why should the Palestinians bother to discriminate between military and civilians when the reprisals are pretty much the same either way?

	28-02-2003 03:40									#71
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quote: Israel isn't exactly squeaky clean when it comes to obeying the rules of war.

noone claimed that. Our problem is that we don't try enough, They're deliberately targetting civilians.

quote: In any case, it is impossible for the Palestinians to fight a 'fair' war against Israeli forces.

are teenagers, civilians riding buses, and schoolchildren considered Israeli forces? And in any case, why continue a war if you can get what your (stated) aim is by peace?

quote: You seem to arguing that the Palestinians should roll over and play dead, something that is inconceivable from a Palestinian point of view.

A. I didn't argue that.
B. Being gay is also something inconceivable from a Palestinian point of view. Does it mean that I can't argue about that too?
C. If what they wanted was a state side by side with Israel, including almost the entire west bank ( in the 90% ), and Gaza, they could've got it before that.
heck, why wouldn't Egypt take a part of the Northen Sinai Coast, and give it to the Palestinians? it doesn't do anything with that land anyway. Damn waste, if you ask me.

quote: Why should the Palestinians bother to discriminate between military and civilians when the reprisals are pretty much the same either way?

The IDF certainly doesn't do enough. However, there is a deliberate targetting of civilians by the palestinians.

	28-02-2003 03:44									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman . In any case, it is impossible for the Palestinians to fight a 'fair' war against Israeli forces. [/qb]

You mean it's impossible for them to win a "fair" war. Then perhaps they shouldn't start one. It's generally not a wise idea to attack a stronger enemy. And no matter how unfair they fight, I don't see any way for them to win a fight with Israel, anyway.

quote: You seem to arguing that the Palestinians should roll over and play dead, something that is inconceivable from a Palestinian point of view.

No, I think they should pursue diplomacy honestly and meet their responsibility according to the terms they agrree to. They didn't do that in Oslo.

You seem to think Israel should roll over and give the Palestinians all they want to stop the terrorist acts. The major problem is that that won't stop the terrorist acts, it'll only escalate them, because they see that that tactic brings them closer to getting Israel destroyed.

quote: Why should the Palestinians bother to discriminate between military and civilians when the reprisals are pretty much the same either way?

Well, I guess morality and PR. Either way, if you start a war, you shouldn't be suprised if the other side reacts.

	28-02-2003 04:02									#73
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Right on, DaShi!

I am heartened to see more people adopting the view that there should be no excuse for the tactics of vile little gutter snipes who skulk around in civies targeting civilians.

	28-02-2003 06:17									#74
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quote: heard a similar thing happened in Shanghai's FuDan university ... does anybody have any reports on this either way?

Haven't seen or heard anything of the sort. It would be surprising if I did not hear about it as I attended Fudan and still have friends there. I'd chalk this one up to the ever-churning Rumor Mill.

	28-02-2003 06:34									#75
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye Haven't seen or heard anything of the sort. It would be surprising if I did not hear about it as I attended Fudan and still have friends there. I'd chalk this one up to the ever-churning Rumor Mill.

Glad to hear it. The man who told me that rumor was my father, but he's in Guangzhou at the moment so it's possible he was a victim of the rumor mills.