27-02-2003 00:33									#1
	Revised deal with Vox and Lux Inflate your Upload Space

It seems that Vox and Lux haven't quite been operating on the same page. Lux apparently gave Vox 150 gold to hold with the expectation that they could get whatever of it they needed to buy Writing and Map Making back from Vox, while Vox expected to supply the techs themselves.

In our original plan, we were to get 150 gold plus an in-game world map as compensation for letting Lux live and helping them get off the continent. In this revision that Jon Miller and BetaHound pushed last night, we would get only 75 gold, but we would also share in Construction when Lux discovers it, presumably in a little less than 40 turns. So in a sense, we may actually get more out of letting Lux live than we had been planning in terms of, although we'll get less cash.

The provisions of the revised arrangement are as follows:

1) Vox gives us 75 of the 150 gold they got from Lux.

2) We or Vox provides Lux with Writing.

3) Both we and Vox get Construction from Lux when they discover it (probably just under 40 turns).

4) Vox pays half the 30 gold that's part of our proposed deal to acquire Map Making from GoW, assuming that deal goes through.

5) We supply Map Making to both Vox and Lux, assuming the deal with GoW goes through. (Otherwise, some kind of alternative arrangements will be necessary.)

6) Lux provides both us and Vox with in-game world maps.

7) Vox gets two or three gpt from Lux.

I'd also like to propose one more amendment, which I'm hoping Vox will like and Lux will be willing to live with:

8) For the time it occupies Portia and 20 turns thereafter, Lux agrees to purchase technologies only from us and Vox. The price will be 40% of the first-researcher cost, and we and Vox will split the proceeds equally. (Lux may, however, trade Construction to other nations as they see fit.)

	27-02-2003 00:40									#2
	Got spare money?

Deja vu

(sorry, couldn't resist )

* screenshots of BOB ASAP

	27-02-2003 00:47									#3
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Isn't Construction needed to get to the medieval age?
If we depend on Vox for getting Construction, we'll get to the Medieval age later than we could otherwise.
I suggest that we don't accept any promises of some tech in 40 turns. If Vox doesn't have the cash to pay us, they can pay in gpt for all we care.
As for clause 8, Lux promises to buy techs only from us - but what if they decide not to buy anything at all? Also, how are they going to pay 40% of a tech's price if they can't even pay us 150 gold? (e.g. 40% of the first researcher price of CoL is 96 gold; currency: 154 gold; The Republic: 269 gold)

The rest, however, is excellent.

	27-02-2003 00:48									#4
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quote: Originally posted by alva * screenshots of BOB ASAP

Yes, and that too!

	27-02-2003 00:56									#5
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Lux must stay at war with both GoW and ND for as long as they are on our continent. That way at least these teams can't open any embassies.


We only give writing and MM to Lux when all other teams have these techs (except Lego)

Last edited by alva on 27-02-2003 at 01:56

	27-02-2003 01:21									#6
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Isn't Construction needed to get to the medieval age? If we depend on Vox for getting Construction, we'll get to the Medieval age later than we could otherwise. I suggest that we don't accept any promises of some tech in 40 turns. If Vox doesn't have the cash to pay us, they can pay in gpt for all we care. As for clause 8, Lux promises to buy techs only from us - but what if they decide not to buy anything at all? Also, how are they going to pay 40% of a tech's price if they can't even pay us 150 gold? (e.g. 40% of the first researcher price of CoL is 96 gold; currency: 154 gold; The Republic: 269 gold) The rest, however, is excellent.

The complication is that if Lux pays us, they're going to expect to get the gold to do it back from Vox because that's how they seem to understand the deal. Yes, I see Lux's devious handiwork all over this arrangement, and I'm not especially fond of it.

On a 40-turn research pace, Lux will just need 1gpt for research. Add three gpt to Vox and Lux will still have at least 2 gpt left over while they're working the fish. If they hold onto Portia long enough, it's not hard to envision their accumulating enough gold to buy at least one tech. And the amendment is as much about making sure the teams on Bob don't get Luxian gold for techs any time soon as it is about trying to get gold for us and Vox.

Regarding Construction, waiting for Lux to provide it to us might slow us down a little, but not too badly. With how slow Vox's research is, if we don't want to trade away the advantage Republic gives us (and if Vox refuses to trade Philosophy, that would help ensure us a nice head start), we'll probably end up researching both Republic and Currency while Vox handles Polytheism. Assuming our trades go through, that would leave only Construction needed to get out of the ancient era.

Depending on how long Lux has been working on Construction and how fast we are, we might or might not be slowed down at that point. But even if we are slowed down, the cash we save in the meantime would enable either major military upgrades or a very fast headlong tech rush once we do enter the medieval era. Either way, we'd find ourselves in good shape.

On the other hand, if someone else has Construction and we want to trade away Republic, Lux's research into Construction would be worthless to us.

Nathan

	27-02-2003 01:23									#7
	Got spare money?

Everyone but Lux already has Writing. Map Making could need to go to Lux sooner if trades for it move slowly, since they need Map Making to get off the continent.

	27-02-2003 01:38									#8
	Put an end to popups!

One moment. Nathan, where did you got your additional information, only from last Vox chat, or was it confirmed by Lux? Because my confusion comes from the two stories we heard, of which only one can be true. I think it is perfectly possible that Lux paid Vox 150, and said 'the treasury is empty, but some of that money was for writing and MM'. However, in the chat with us, Trip clearly said he had currently (so after payment to Vox) 170 in cash.

If the information of this new deal comes from Vox only, I strongly suspect that they misunderstood it, or are being lied to by Lux. Before I vote on any proposal, please get some confirmation from Lux, because one of the two is not telling the thruth. (not willingly, perhaps).

Oh, and no deal without immediate screenshots.

DeepO

	27-02-2003 01:57									#9
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My sources are the chats with Vox and Lux and a copy of the treaty between Vox and Lux that NYE posted to the Vox ambassador's office thread. It's possible I'm drawing some incorrect inferences, but Jon sounded in the chat like Lux was pressuring them to give money back. By my interpretation, Lux may be viewing the money given to Vox as still "available" to them under the terms of the treaty if they need it to purchase Writing and Map Making. Or they may be telling us how much they have at present and not telling us that they also expect to get some gold back from Vox in addition to that; such deception would certainly not be out of character from what I can tell.

Nathan

	27-02-2003 02:07									#10
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Everyone but Lux already has Writing. Map Making could need to go to Lux sooner if trades for it move slowly, since they need Map Making to get off the continent.

They need a settler too,a spearmen, let them build those things first, then do some prebuilding...

That should be more then enough time for MM to be dealt around.
(just wanne make sure that lux won't sell it behind our backs, whatever they promise. I'm trying to keep them honest )
ohh, and to prevent 'avoidable' tech devaluation...

	27-02-2003 02:27									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

75 gold plus construction in a few less than 40 turns. Not bad.

Nathan, I'm confused by the MapMaking situation. Sorry. Can you explain it? Who is supposed to be researching it, who is supposed to be buying it, etc?

Screenshots pronto!

-Arrian

	27-02-2003 02:35									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'd say the deal currently is 75 gold + world map, the construction part of it I doubt. It's like the '3 scientific starting-era-techs' deal between Lux and Vox: so long term, that by the time we reach it, it won't matter. In 40 turns, we can expect that at least one other team has researched construction, so we would be able to trade for it. Further, in 40 turns, Lux might as well be toast. All it takes is one galley with 2 swords from ND...

BTW, shouldn't we include a term that if ND lands on Portia's shores, Vox is required to immediately take possession of Portia? I can stand a Lux seeking refuge on our continent, but if possible I would like to keep any Bob civ from taking a beach head here... Maybe the chance is small, but it's one less thing to worry about, and it would further put pressure on Lux to get the hell out of here.

DeepO

	27-02-2003 02:45									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

DeepO,

Yeah, we can't have Portia falling to ND.

But how do we ensure that? If we see a galley we repossess ("we" being either us or Vox)? That's a bit harsh, considering the galley could be empty.

But if we wait for the galley to unload troops, it could be too late to repossess.

Therefore, I say that Lux needs to build 2 spearmen and position them outside of Portia: one to the north, one to the south. Troops cannot off-load directly into the city, and troops then cannot land directly adjacent to the city, thus giving people time to deal with the situation.

-Arrian

	27-02-2003 03:53									#14
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With the revisions, and a screenshot (and WM, once we have MM- damn GoW for delaying...), i see this worked out. I think posting some units on the coast would do give us enough time to take the city, if the need arises- i would crown this game successful, in our terms, if we manage to keep foreign armies off of our continent, create a kind of safe paradise...

Regarding BOB's teams finding Lux- if RP establishes an embassy- and they're not at war with Lux, i think it won't be long before the information leaks to ND/GoW, and some copper leaks into RP's coffers...

	27-02-2003 05:53									#15
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Arrian: I think most of us agree that in such a catastrpohic situation (for Lux), Vox is the one that needs to act, and not us. I'm not certain on which order the turn is played, but Vox should always have 1 turn to take Portia, after foreign troops have landed. So, if they are allowed one warrior adjacent to Portia (us being 2 tiles away), they can always react to any invasion.

If the order is right, we might want to give Lux one turn to try to defeat any invasion force, if in the same turn Vox can conquer Portia. But if not, we simply demand that Vox gets one unit close to Portia, and takes it at the first sign of invasion, even if Lux would have 2 spears positioned outside the city, and ND only lands with 1 sword.

Another option would be if the three of us divide the coast line, and prevent any galley from landing troops too close to Portia, so that they at least need 2 or 3 turns from reaching the city. But even then, I would suggest that we lay the risk at Lux's camp, in that the moment anyone invades, their game is over.

DeepO

	27-02-2003 06:05									#16
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Arrian: I think most of us agree that in such a catastrpohic situation (for Lux), Vox is the one that needs to act, and not us. I'm not certain on which order the turn is played, but Vox should always have 1 turn to take Portia, after foreign troops have landed. So, if they are allowed one warrior adjacent to Portia (us being 2 tiles away), they can always react to any invasion. If the order is right, we might want to give Lux one turn to try to defeat any invasion force, if in the same turn Vox can conquer Portia. But if not, we simply demand that Vox gets one unit close to Portia, and takes it at the first sign of invasion, even if Lux would have 2 spears positioned outside the city, and ND only lands with 1 sword. Another option would be if the three of us divide the coast line, and prevent any galley from landing troops too close to Portia, so that they at least need 2 or 3 turns from reaching the city. But even then, I would suggest that we lay the risk at Lux's camp, in that the moment anyone invades, their game is over. DeepO

In any possible scenario, it would seem that we get screwed. If lux is found, we will be held responsible, even if we show screenshots of it in vox hands. If they aren't found out, then we have subsidized an lying civs research. Will they give us construction if they are off the island already? Probably not, but that will give us incentive to hunt them down.

Personally, I just want them to build a galley a settler and a spear and get the hell off our island. The sooner the better. The price of construction will be too high if the others find out what we've done (allowed).