01-05-2001 09:44									#1
	Bureaucracy Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

We all assume that captured bases count in the bureaucracy totals. However, in a recent game playing AKI on a 180x120 map, I founded a base late in the game on the Manifold Nexus. I then received my first bureaucracy warning! It said, if I go over 39 bases, etc. etc. etc. At the time, though, I had 60+ bases, the last twenty-five or so through capture. I had indeed previously founded 38 bases through pods.

So, it seems, that bureaucracy is not impacted by captured bases.

Ned

	30-04-2001 22:02									#2
	Got spare money?

Ned,

I think the problem lies in the fact that the program does not give you the bureaucracy warning immediately after capturing a base. Rather, it gives you the warning on the founding of your next base - i.e. if the limit is 8 bases, and you found 8, then capture a 9th, it won't give you a warning until the next base you found (the 10th, 11th or whatever it might be). I think this is the reason for the warning in this circumstance, rather than captured bases not counting.

	01-05-2001 03:06									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Prehaps I am missing something - but wouldn't it be safer to assume you actually just got the 2nd bureaucracy warning? You don't get ANY bureaucracy warning if you capture a base when you reach the first bureaucracy warning.

[This message has been edited by Blake (edited April 30, 2001).]

	01-05-2001 08:09									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Blake, I've never seen a drone riot in a one of my cities after I captured a base. To me, this seems to indicate that I am not getting extra drones as I add captured bases. This in turn indicates that captured bases do not add to bureaucracy.

But the message is strange. This was the 39th base I founded. Why that message after I had 60+ bases?

ned

	01-05-2001 22:13									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It seems like I've had drone riot surprises on the turn following my capturing a base (despite having "adjusted" the workers to avoid that) - as if it were recalculating the status of the people on the top line of the Psych display at the beginning of the turn. This is only a "seems", not a rigorous test.

Does the status of the base ever change from "Captured Base" after some period of time? I know that they are talking about some sort of transition period in Civ3, but I don't know for sure that it is in SMAC/X. At the very least, it changes the base graphics to the new owners design at some point; I've always assumed that that meant I had assimilated the base, but I don't remember if I've ever looked at the Psych screen to see and it could be that it is just replacing the graphics at its regular time (at various base sizes).

I've noticed that sometimes the AI seems more attached to its lost bases than others. Then there is the occasional renaming of captured bases - I think I had a theory about that once, perhaps it had something to do with the names of the technicians in one of the mind worm interludes?

Are there any other possible differences in treatment of Captured bases?

	02-05-2001 02:44									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ned, common rumor has it that when you reach double the BW (if it's 40 in your case, 2x is 80), you get a second warning. Not having seen it, that may give you the same number as the first. Where you perchance trying to found base # 80?

Jon, captured bases are no longer captured after 50 years. Furthermore, every ten years one of the "captured base" drones that appear when you capture a base dissappear.

And yes, I get that thing with drone riots in captured bases all the time. I always set the workers to avoid drone riots. When I have a lot of bases, frequently more than half of the remaining pop (non drone) turn to drones.

	02-05-2001 03:10									#7
	Support Apolyton

Yeah, but if that was the case, surely it would give you a warning about hitting 80 bases, rather than 39 bases?

BTW Fitz - what happened to you at CGN?

	02-05-2001 03:29									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Efficiency has a huge effect. I was just playing a game as Gaians on a huge map running Demo/Green/Wealth/Cybernetic (+8 efficiency) and got a warning after founding a base "As we expand beyond 39 bases...." !! On the other hand, Lal gets that warning after 9 bases! (-1 efficiency)

	02-05-2001 05:34									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I've never seen the second warning (I think), so I don't know if it quotes the correct amount, or just repeats the old number again.

Lots of things combined Mark, but I should be back with two weeks. I'm getting a new PC soon, and it will motivate me (in spite of a very busy life right now) to turn on my PC occassionally at home.

	02-05-2001 06:51									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Oh, I have seen multiple BW's. When I first started playing SMAC, I played it like I would play CIV. I would expand as fast as I could the whole game, trying to occuppy and terraform every single free spot. I would sometimes have 200 base. Ouch! So I know the difference between the warnings.

They all have essentially the same message. It gives you a number and says founding bases beyond that number increases drones, etc., and that your should consider increasing your efficiency. The time you get your first warning is scaled to map size and efficiency. With AKI, runing high efficiency all the way, I am not surprised at all that I got the first warning on the 39th base. My map size was 180x120, which is about four times the area of "huge."

Captured cities have an extra drone for 50 turns. If such a city were to also count against bureaucracy, one would expect at times two "extra" drones in a captured city. This I have not seen, IIRC.

So, I submit, again, captured bases do not count against bureaucracy totals.

	03-05-2001 01:38									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm pretty sure I've hit the warning after capturing a couple of bases, and it was at the right number. Could be wrong though. And I'm pretty sure I've captured some bases, pushed myself over the limit, failed to get the warning, and then never seen one even though I've then exceeded the limit with colonization at a later date (kinda like what you describe), and never seen the limit warning.

Next time, I'll pay attention.

How many of those 80 bases had been captured in the last 50 years? Maybe captured bases don't count against your limit until they are officially yours.
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited May 02, 2001).]

	03-05-2001 01:39									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Oops...


[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited May 02, 2001).]

	03-05-2001 03:30									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Fitz, I am beginning to think that captured bases don't count against BW or anything else for a couple of reasons, one of which is set forth in the other thread on ED. I am willing to bet that one actually has to build a TF or HF or CP in order to increase Clean Minerals. Captured bases are separately treated, not only for not giving one credit for captured tree farms, but also so that they do not count against BW's.

Ned