28-02-2003 23:43									#31
	Increase Your PM Length

I guess that the Mounted Warrior would look pretty unbalanced if you analyzed it that way, alexman.

But then if you take into account how the civ's traits factor in (full-price barracks for the Iroquois), and the upgrade path (chariots being 2x as shield-costly as warriors for prebuilds), it isn't necessarily the monster it looks like.

Anyway, I agree with your conclusion. Most of the units are pretty well balanced.

-Arrian

	01-03-2003 00:25									#32
	Got spare money?

I plunged in to read the spoilers even though I haven't even downloaded the class assignment -- yesterday morning my aging laptop finally bit the dust -- unless I find a good deal on a standard set-up at a local electronics store, it looks like no (or very little) civ for at least the week it would take to get a new Dell built and shipped. I guess the good news is that I get to reintroduce myself to my wife . . . and, I get a more powerful Civ Console . . . er, productivity tool .

Rough break badams52 -- I hope you're playing again with a warrior-enabled civ.

Dominae, Arrian and Nathan all seem to be on the way to UP.

quote: Originally posted by alexman So on average, you lose more shields by attacking with regular swordsmen than you do with Gallic Swordsmen, even if the latter cost 50 shields compared to 30!

. . . and you get retreat (which is more than just preserving shields -- it also enables preservation of previously acquired promotions) and a fast mover attack ability to boot.

Maybe we should discuss the merits of changing the GS cost to 60 shields.

Catt

	01-03-2003 01:10									#33
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Persians are the axis of evil, allright!

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	01-03-2003 01:15									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Doh! They killed Olaf! Those Bastards! [/Southpark]

Catt,

Sorry to hear about the laptop, but like you said, now you get a fancy new toy!

Get that baby up and running, I miss your AAR already.

-Arrian

	01-03-2003 01:15									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

They walked right into my territory and attacked across the river with 2 warriors against my single one. The second one got lucky and my game was kinda over.

This calls for revenge!!!

	01-03-2003 03:22									#36
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Olaf, you gave me the perfect excuse to throw my current peace treaty with Persia in my game out the window. How dare they do such a nasty thing to my civilization in an alternate universe?

	01-03-2003 04:23									#37
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Olaf, you gave me the perfect excuse to throw my current peace treaty with Persia in my game out the window. How dare they do such a nasty thing to my civilization in an alternate universe?

I forgot to mention that they didn't even declare war until they attacked. They came from nowhere and Bam-Bom-game over!
The next game was better (see below).

	01-03-2003 04:35									#38
	Inflate your Upload Space

Next try went better (so far). I play emperor level. Built the cities quite close. Focused on military and REX. Almost no early culture. Met 3 civs very soon and did some tech trading. Built some temples at the edge cities to expand my borders. Got lucky (see picture).

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	01-03-2003 04:47									#39
	Increase Your PM Length

Finally got Iron, after the border expanded. Started to build and upgrade to the Gals. Had about 10 when Persia declared war after a refused blackmail. I attacked first and triggered my GA. Lost 3 Gals to city defenders but eventually took the city. Killed plenty of archers and immortals (they are mortal ) and made peace quite soon. Built and built Gals until Rome declared war after a refused blackmail. I had 25 o them when the war started. Persia and India joined Rome's side on the next turn.

Man, do these Gals rock? Kill/loss ratio perhaps 5:1 - even on legions!

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	01-03-2003 16:56									#40
	Remove this text

My Gallic swordsmen killed enemy units like butchering cattle. Spearmen, archers, immortals, legions, knights - none of them were any match. I took 2 Indian cities before they begged for peace. The Romans were also willing to pay tribute to me after losing hordes of men to my Gals. Now I could focus on the Persians, my nemesis from the first game. The war was slowly but steadily going my way, capturing city after city, when 3 random events within a short time ruined my fun:

1) My only iron depleted - goodbye to any more Gals, not to mention the knights and pikemen that I would otherwise be able to build soon.

2) A size 9 city with only Gaelic citizens AND my forbidden palace DEPOSED to the Chinese! This was the first time ever I have seen such a thing happen in 15 months of playing CIV3. That event alone would be enough to quit a non-tournament game. But I decided to play on.

3) I attacked Persepolis with everything I had. An earlier attempt with a stack of 13 Gals had failed. Now I had 30 Gals. The upgrade of pikemen to musketmen did not save the Persians. I took the city with only minor losses, along with the Great Library, the Colossus and the Lighthouse. The GL gave me 10+ techs so that I was almost up to date with the leading Romans. 2 turns later, Persepolis deposed back. That would normally not have been a big problem, but now it contained more than 20 of my Gallic Swordsmen, plus longbows and horsies. Goodbye to warmongering.

My retaliation was merciless. Persepolis is no more!

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	01-03-2003 18:25									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Is this a bug, or why have I no ivory in my luxury box? There is surely an elephant with roads within the city borders.

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	01-03-2003 18:56									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Is it possible that you're trading away all the ivory that's currently hooked up?

Edit: In case anyone doesn't realize it, if you lose a supply of something due to a culture flip, military loss, etc., you have to honor your trade deals as best you can even if it means doing without yourself. (At least that was how it worked last I noticed.)

Last edited by nbarclay on 01-03-2003 at 19:33

	01-03-2003 21:44									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Since the 1st Celtic worker left the village to work in the game rich forest, the Celts had a vision of their future. An army of GS would dominate the continent and ignite a Golden Age. They quickly discovered their centralized position in the world and used it gain a tech broker position. Iron (just the type of resource the Celts would need for their GS) was discovered near the Chinese border and a settler was rushed to the area. At this moment the Celts realized they would have to control the Chinese lands if they truly wanted to advance as a great nation. The Chinese Capital would be a great place to build a FP if a GL were ever spawned.

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	01-03-2003 21:45									#44
	Got spare money?

China and Persia were currently fighting and our military buildup was breaking our economy. The Celts decided that now was the time to begin. Our GS army headed toward the Chinese capital and the Wonder know the world over as the Pyramids. The mysteries powers of the Pyramids were said to let a civilization grow more rapidly. The objective was achieved in two years and the Celtic GA was in full swing.

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	01-03-2003 21:46									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Unfortunately the future unraveled for the Celts. The Persians who were in a long distance stalemate war with the Chinese decided to change their course. They made peace with China and attacked us. With most of our army to the North we were in no position to defend ourselves. A wave of immortals quickly poured over our lands and the Celtic people were never seen building cities again.

It was rumored that one family of Celts managed to escape alive. They were historians who would write of the “Critical Errors of the Celtic People” and pass to future generations the story of the little green people who just could make things work.

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	02-03-2003 00:04									#46
	Second try (now that I have warriors) Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Okay, of course I tried again this time with the necessary warriors. My exploration with warriors was pretty much the same but now I got to use 3 warrior scouts instead of just 2 archer scouts.

BTW am I the only one ralphing here, or trying a close proximation of it? I use my version which has less camp cities than the true ralphing technique and I build the permanent cities 2nd and 3rd instead of maybe 7th and 8th.

I found the Chinese first, then Indians and like the rest of you, started building cities north west to the Chinese, the less prosperous south east would have to wait. My zero tech eventually got me to the point of trading tech with the Chinese and Indians netting me writing and finding out no one else knew of the other civs. very interesing. Soon after my scouts found the Persians...more tech trading and bartering including selling contact. Hey, they're going to find each other eventually since were all on the same continent, so I might as well get something for my troubles.

Kept exploring and found the Romans before everyone else who are way behind in tech (were the Romans or Indians even trying to find each other). So again I tech bargained, map-bargained and contact bargained to net much more gold and almost gave the Romans my map to prevent others from getting stuff from the Romans with their maps and traded the map all around so everyone knew everything else. Gotta stop AI trading

Built up some warriors, found out that the closest iron source (unsettled yet) was near Shanghai and beelined a settler towards the resource. Xinjian was build just before my settler got to his destined spot (1 or 2 tiles NW) so I plopped him where I could. And started building warriors.

My troops were stationed near the Chinese borders, and was hoping for a Jaguar Warrior (GS) buyout to rush the Chinese with overwhelming force. Had just upgraded 8 (at 640 gold!!!) preparing to rush the close Chinese cities when Persia comes calling asking for tribute. I tell him to blow your demand out your ear and boom, WAR.

I'm thinking, "Are you nuts??? I just upgraded 8 warriors to GS and I'm gonna whip your a$$." And procede to autoraze the 3 cities Persia settled southernly. Darn autoraze, hurting my rep with the other civs. My 8 GS are heading to central Persia where they will soon be a memory while I try and back fill some of the open land with settlers.

I figure I can either keep China and India around so that I can aquire Chivalry from them easily, or take out China before riders and take the most premium land from them. Right now, China's enjoying my wines, but soon will be fleeing from my steel, uh, iron.

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	02-03-2003 00:12									#47
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Jawa: tough break. Hope to see you have better luck next attempt.

Olaf: 2 tough games. I'm surprised your city flipped as well seeing that Shanghai flipped to you earlier.

	02-03-2003 00:48									#48
	Re: Second try (now that I have warriors) Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by badams52 And procede to autoraze the 3 cities Persia settled southernly. Darn autoraze, hurting my rep with the other civs.

Does autoraze hurt your rep.?

	02-03-2003 03:21									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

A couple of adaptive moves helped me stay in the game for a little longer:

1: I didn't know the 1.29 game was on standard rules (as opposed to AU rules) so I had built archers to defend every city. I had found out long ago that the expected auto- bombard against attackers never occured, but I still kept them. I upgraded all of them to longbows and sent them to the front.

2: The razing of Persepolis opened a no-mans-land road to the Persian Iron. Instead of pillaging it, (which I already had done once, but they had reclaimed it), I placed a city on top of it (I named it IRONY) Now I had Iron again and could upgrade all my horsies to knights. The Persian homeland was finally mine! I got their saltpeter city and a few techs in the peace treaty. And I got a great leader (the 2nd) to rebuild my forbidden palace, this time on the Indian border.

So far so good. I switched to republic and started to build the civilian improvements of my cities, a thing that had been neglected during the long war. I traded lux and tech with most of the others and started to upgrade to musketmen and cavallery.

BANG! - Rome attacked like a flash from a blue sky! On the first turn, they pillaged my only saltpeter so that I couldn't build more cavallery. I persuaded India to join my side, as they were between me and Rome, but that only meant that India was signing their own death penalty. The mid-industrial Romans rolled over the middle age Indians like they were not even there. Then it was my turn. I got America to sign a MPP but that was of little help as they were on another continent. When my old friends China joined Rome's side and started to capture cities in my unprotected north, I decided the game was finally over.

I need to be humble enough to choose monarch level on these tournaments. Emperor is just a too big piece to swallow.

It is perhaps a little cheaty to replay the game on a lower level after playing this far, but as I love the Gallic swordsman, I think I will do it.

	02-03-2003 03:37									#50
	Inflate your Upload Space

In a strategic situation like this, you don't want to be in war with China and Rome at the same time, especially when they are both half an age ahead of you in tech. I was. Goodnight...

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	02-03-2003 05:02									#51
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Is it possible that you're trading away all the ivory that's currently hooked up? Edit: In case anyone doesn't realize it, if you lose a supply of something due to a culture flip, military loss, etc., you have to honor your trade deals as best you can even if it means doing without yourself. (At least that was how it worked last I noticed.)

You are probably right, but it's too late to check it, as China has captured the city from me.

	02-03-2003 05:26									#52
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The Gallic Swordsman is AWESOME! I hardly lost a single one when attacking archers, spearmen, immortals, longbows, horsemen or swordsmen in any terrain. I only attacked legions in open ground, so they were no match either. Knights, pikemen and muskets caused some losses when attacking them on tiles with defensive bonus, but I never lost on open ground. I even got lucky quite often when attacking musketmen in size 12 cities!

My conclusion from this first (emulated) PTW game is that nothing can stop a stack of 30 Gallic swordsmen until the emerge of riflemen. Especially if the stack contains 1-3 GS armies as nutcrackers. (Unless the city containing the stack flips, which happened to me).

The GS and the Berserk are reasons enough to buy PTW, even if my principles are against it. Why should Infogrames deserve my money after letting me wait this long? I have placed my preorder on PTW from a local computer retailer. The next info on release is Mar 07! Or I could perhaps download it from a P2P net...

	02-03-2003 05:53									#53
	Remove this text

I play this a 3rd time, this time on monarch level. Ralph is quickly working his way to knighthood in this game. Built warrior-warrior-barracks-archer-settler in the capitol, sent a warrior south and the archer north. Stumbled upon a Chinese warrior/settler combo, attacked it and won. 2 workers for free ! Then I lost some archers to Chinese and barbarian warriors until I attacked the 2nd Chinese city with 2 archers and won with the 1st. The peace deal was more or less the end of China.

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	02-03-2003 05:58									#54
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre It is perhaps a little cheaty to replay the game on a lower level after playing this far, but as I love the Gallic swordsman, I think I will do it.

Since AU is far more about learning than about competition, I see nothing at all wrong with replaying.

	02-03-2003 07:37									#55
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Monarch game: this is the way to treat China!

Muahahahahaha!

Now I have 40+ Gallic Swordsmen and only one direction to go (south)!

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	02-03-2003 08:21									#56
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

40 + Gals rules!

This has just begun - And pikemen will hardly stop me, now that I have 2 GS armies!

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	02-03-2003 08:31									#57
	Re: Re: Second try (now that I have warriors) Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Does autoraze hurt your rep.?

According to bamspeedy's AI Attitute article from the CFC site:

quote: I'm sure (but not positive), that auto-razing would have the same effect as choosing the option to raze. Firaxis has stated that you get a rep-hit for the auto-razes, and this is probably why some people can't figure out why everyone is mad at them (because of all those auto-razes early in the game)

Razing apparently hurts +1 for each razed city to every civ and +12 to the civ who owned the city. Hard to make other civs like you after you raze enough cities, eh?

	02-03-2003 08:37									#58
	Increase Your PM Length

So it's actually better for your reputation to capture cities with high population, population which you can then lure into the country for endless years of servitude as manual workers, or (worse) whip into a production frenzy so that they complete a project faster?

Sigh.

Auto-razing cities should not hurt your rep, because waiting for the city to get to size 2 beforey you conquer it (so as not to take a rep hit) is just dumb.


Dominae

	02-03-2003 08:46									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Auto-razing cities should not hurt your rep, because waiting for the city to get to size 2 beforey you conquer it (so as not to take a rep hit) is just dumb.

What's even dumber is having the player take a rep hit for auto-razing when the only reason the city was auto-razed in the first place was that the AI pop rushed an extra defender. The whole auto-razing system only exists in the first place because capturing cities practically the moment they were settled proved to be too much of an exploit. Shutting down the exploit was reasonable, but penalizing players with a reputation hit for razes that they (1) got no slaves out of and (2) never wanted in the first place is ridiculous.

	02-03-2003 08:56									#60
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Auto-razing cities should not hurt your rep, because waiting for the city to get to size 2 beforey you conquer it (so as not to take a rep hit) is just dumb.

Yep.