01-03-2003 01:59									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Asher If you don't want to agree to the agreement, don't buy the product.

This is a painfully simplistic and disingenous way of looking at things and you know it. This would only be applicable if there was an alternative XBOX sold that did not have this particular passage in the EULA.

quote: Not a legitamate use.

Well at least you have the courage to admit this. So for what purpose is using an operating system other than the one desiginated by the company "Illegitimate" or "immoral" (and don't mention anything about a EULA). Would you be so quck to condemn if hackers found a way to get Windows on a "linux box" gamesystem?

quote: I've always hated region locking, but this isn't as popular as piracy. Hell, on a college campus here soooo many people have modchips, and by far most of them use it to download and burn games and pirate, only a couple people I know use it to import.

Nothing more than anecdotal evidence, from my experience people use modchips far more for imports than piracy. Who's anecdote is better?
Again, you ignore the thrust of my arguement. If modchips are immoral, then you must admit that these uses I have stated are immoral or prove that modchips are used for illegal purposes to such a percentage that it makes their legitimate uses negligble. You seem to indicate that you did not find this particular use immoral, and there is no way you are going to prove that modchips are used to such an extent for piracy that they make the legitimate uses irrelevent. So either way, checkmate old friend.

quote: Companies like EA send you a replacement disc if you send them the damaged one.

Again, oversimplistic and disingenous. Entirely putting aside the legal rights to fair use that allow consumers to make backup copies of games. As matter of pragmatism, why should a consumer have to wait 6-8 weeks (or more) to get a copy of a game (if it doesn't get lost in the shuffle either with the post office, or with corporate HQ), when they can have a copy the same day? Moreover, what if the the company is now defunct? Or if it's an old game? Or if the company has a policy of not allowing replacement discs? Or if it changes it's policy in the future? Or if the replacement disc is subject to a certain time window that has expired? Clearly there are numerous circumstances that would require the consumer exercise his fair use rights to a backup copy.

	01-03-2003 02:10									#32
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider This is a painfully simplistic and disingenous way of looking at things and you know it. This would only be applicable if there was an alternative XBOX sold that did not have this particular passage in the EULA.

Not so at all, faulty logic.
There are plenty of other game devices out there you can buy, if you don't want to agree to the Xbox and PS2's EULA, buy a PC.

The Xbox is not an open platform like a PC, it's a gaming device that can specify its use to ensure its profitability.

quote: Well at least you have the courage to admit this. So for what purpose is using an operating system other than the one desiginated by the company "Illegitimate" or "immoral" (and don't mention anything about a EULA). Would you be so quck to condemn if hackers found a way to get Windows on a "linux box" gamesystem?

I certainly would be just as quick to condemn. The issue is it allows you to run whatever the hell you want on it, meaning you can buy it and never buy a game on it in your life. Which means the manufacturer loses tons of money on it. People wanted to put Linux on Xboxes because they make for cheap webservers -- buy Xboxes in bulk, mod them, load Linux, cluster them -- it's winwin. We're using Linux, MS loses millions on it. That's why it's illegal, by the way.

quote: You seem to indicate that you did not find this particular use immoral, and there is no way you are going to prove that modchips are used to such an extent for piracy that they make the legitimate uses irrelevent. So either way, checkmate old friend.

Not so, you're ignoring the simple rationality:
It's immoral because you're buying the device for what it's not intended, it's that simple.

The device is intended to play specific types of games only, if you mod that you're both breaking the law and you're being immoral by abusing the product's use.

I don't think that playing out-of-region games/DVDs should be illegal, or even immoral, but the process to go about doing that is certainly both as it is right now.

quote: Again, oversimplistic and disingenous. Entirely putting aside the legal rights to fair use that allow consumers to make backup copies of games. [quote]As matter of pragmatism, why should a consumer have to wait 6-8 weeks (or more) to get a copy of a game (if it doesn't get lost in the shuffle either with the post office, or with corporate HQ), when they can have a copy the same day? Moreover, what if the the company is now defunct? Or if it's an old game? Or if the company has a policy of not allowing replacement discs? Or if it changes it's policy in the future? Or if the replacement disc is subject to a certain time window that has expired? Clearly there are numerous circumstances that would require the consumer exercise his fair use rights to a backup copy.

If you do a bit-by-bit copy of your game, you shouldn't need a modchip.

But I still think this isn't a very applicable argument. Do you know how much DVDs cost (to do a full game backup)? Do you know how much DVD burners cost?

	01-03-2003 02:37									#33
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So Asher? Are modifications to cars "immoral" also?

	01-03-2003 02:41									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Sava So Asher? Are modifications to cars "immoral" also?

What a wonderful analogy.
Although to be actually anywhere near correct, the car companies would have to be selling the cars at a sizable loss to you and rely on you to keep bringing your car back for servicing to make money, and you'll take the car and just fix it yourself.

And I would consider that immoral, you're intentionally screwing the company.

	01-03-2003 02:43									#35
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So if you don't get your car repaired at a dealership, you're immoral.

	01-03-2003 02:44									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Sava So if you don't get your car repaired at a dealership, you're immoral.

Silly Sava, please try to keep up.

I was saying IF they sell the cars to you AT A SIZABLE LOSS (no car makers do this that I know of) and REQUIRED you to take your car in for servicing for them to make back the money, then yes, it would be immoral for you to buy the car, forcing the company to take a hit, then **** around with it by yourself.

Of course it's a ridiculous example, but it's the only way to make your stupid car analogy work.

	01-03-2003 02:47									#37
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You see, Sava, the difference between buying a regular car and buying an Xbox is this: The car companies make a profit off the car.
A $199 Xbox loses ~$100 for MS, and that money is supposed to be made up for by game royalty sales.

That's why piracy stings really bad, that's why loading Linux on the Xboxes is illegit, etc.

	01-03-2003 02:51									#38
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It's not my fault Microsoft can't run their business well. Once I buy an Xbox, its mine. And I can do whatever the f*ck I want with it. Saying that a company has the power to say what a person can or can't do with the goods they buy is just stupid... but hey if the shoe fits...

	01-03-2003 02:54									#39
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quote: Why shouldn't the government be able to sieze what has been declared a criminal enterprise?

Right on, Dino.

I see nothing wrong with seizing a site that engages in criminal activity. Selling mod chips is automatically suspect.

	01-03-2003 02:54									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Sava It's not my fault Microsoft can't run their business well.

Sony did the same thing.
It's the razor blade business model, and it's proven to work quite well.

quote: Once I buy an Xbox, its mine. And I can do whatever the f*ck I want with it. Saying that a company has the power to say what a person can or can't do with the goods they buy is just stupid... but hey if the shoe fits...

Why don't you read what you're actually buying. You're not buying just the physical box.

And I'd suggest you brush up on the law -- the company has the power to say what you can and can't do with the product you're buying.

See the scalping thread if you want to waste your breath some more.

	01-03-2003 02:58									#41
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Well, if the law says that, it's wrong, and it shouldn't be followed.

I feel no pity for some greedy corporation that thinks it can control my property. And I'll promote piracy and mod chipping even more now, because I know a bunch of dumbasses don't like it.

	01-03-2003 03:00									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Well, if the law says that, it's wrong, and it shouldn't be followed. I feel no pity for some greedy corporation that thinks it can control my property. And I'll promote piracy and mod chipping even more now, because I know a bunch of dumbasses don't like it.

You are my hero, Sava.

Aren't you getting a job in the game's industry...

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. I guess you wouldn't know any better though.

	01-03-2003 03:04									#43
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Sure I'm getting a job in the industry. But piracy doesn't take money away from the actual programmers and game designers. It takes money away from the publishers who are a bunch of greedy capitalist 4ssholes. I make games and such because I enjoy it, not because I want to make a buck.

You're driven by the dollar... that's the difference between you and me.

	01-03-2003 03:07									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Sure I'm getting a job in the industry. But piracy doesn't take money away from the actual programmers and game designers.

quote: It takes money away from the publishers who are a bunch of greedy capitalist 4ssholes.

And where do you think the "actual programmers and game designers" get their money from...

quote: I make games and such because I enjoy it

Can I see some of the games you've made?

quote: You're driven by the dollar... that's the difference between you and me.

I would venture the main difference between you and me is I'm in a real program, you're in some liberal arts diploma/BA computer program -- and I think it shows.

	01-03-2003 03:15									#45
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I'm working on two projects right now. One is a mod for Battlefield1942, the other is an original game. They are both in developmental stage. I've made skins and models for other games. I'm an intern at High Voltage software (which makes Xbox games, ironically). I already work in the industry. If you graduate, you'll face the prospect of trying to get your foot in the door, all while I'll be working full time making a nice salary doing what I love. So continue to lick Bill Gates' ass. Hopefully you'll get a job as a secretary at Microshaft some day.

	01-03-2003 03:17									#46
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quote: I'm an intern at High Voltage software (which makes Xbox games, ironically). I already work in the industry.

You don't think I'm going to get job experience before I graduate? Why would you think that? It's usually easier for BSc students to get their foot in the door in the computer industry than BA or diploma computer students, you know...

What games does High Voltage make anyway?

	01-03-2003 03:23									#47
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If you were important enough, I'd teach you about ILIA and their program.

	01-03-2003 03:30									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Sava If you were important enough, I'd teach you about ILIA and their program.

Right, okay, Sava...

The reason you won't tell me about it is because you know it won't compare well.

	01-03-2003 03:37									#49
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Your challenging curriculum...

quote: First Quarter Fundamentals of Design Fundamentals of Drawing & Composition Computer Literacy Second Quarter Survey of Design and Media Color Theory Life Drawing English I Third Quarter Scriptwriting and Storytelling for Games 3-D Design Image Manipulation Humanities/Fine Arts Elective Fourth Quarter Drawing and Characterization Fundamentals of Animation Introduction to Video and Digital Photography English II Fifth Quarter Storyboarding and Animatics Advanced Drawing Fundamentals of Audio Concepts of Modern Math Sixth Quarter 3-D Modeling Game Design/Edutainment Development Animation Layout and Scene Design Statistics Seventh Quarter 3-D Animation Designing Interior Spaces & Worlds/ Intro to Architecture Social & Behavioral Science Elective Physical/Life Science Elective Eighth Quarter Digital Audio/Video Level Design Programming for the Artist Humanities/Fine Art Elective Ninth Quarter Materials and Lighting Game Modeling and Animation Physical/Life Science Elective Social/Behavioral Sciences Elective Tenth Quarter Computer Simulations Interactive Game Prototyping Portfolio Preparation Eleventh Quarter Advanced Game Prototyping Portfolio Preparation Humanities/Fine Art Elective Twelfth Quarter Career Development Senior Project Physical and Life Science Elective