01-03-2003 22:23									#61
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Whatever corentor.

About my grammar i apologise. If i grew up in an english speaking country i would know it better. I apply rules from my language to english and sometimes it doesn't sound good. At least to foreigners.

	01-03-2003 22:27									#62
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Gal Civ goes gold on Monday and thank goodness!!
Especially after 2 frustrating days of trying to figure out MOO3 ...


On Gal Civ webpage they posted a play by play of an entire game with pics and just following it along was like a breath of fresh air.

Altho their decision to come out "after" MOO3 was a good for them but not my wallet....!!

	01-03-2003 22:40									#63
	willing to buy... Tired of ads?

ok... please don't take this the wrong way.

if anyone is thinking of throwing away/destroying/breaking/murder the game or... thinking of returning/selling, I'd be willing to buy it second hand.

Please pm me.

If you don't care, please don't pm me.

have a nice day.

	01-03-2003 23:52									#64
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

This thread degraded fast

	02-03-2003 00:40									#65
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Another thing corentor.

Since you take so much notice of my grammar.I did not find "LOL" in any dictionary. So much about kids and grade one.

	02-03-2003 00:46									#66
	Increase Your PM Length

The thing about the learning curve for this game is one thing: If you haven't played Moo2 before this release, you're in serious trouble. The reason I can get around in this game is because I am familiar of what went on in Moo2.

I am anxiously awaiting PC Gamers review on the game. I have a feeling that there won't be a good review there.

	02-03-2003 04:56									#67
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sillelak: +10 I totally agree.

I loved Master of Magic, MOO1 and 2, and here I'm totally disappointed. I dont even know how to build a fleet ! everything it's just a long report. Nothing seems real. You just hit "next turn", wishing that the viceroy could also take care of the fleet too.

What a joke. Give me Moo2 anytime!

	02-03-2003 05:12									#68
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by kalbear The design doc for MoO3 declared it was to be an A+ title to sell 500K copies or more. That's a mainstream game if there ever was one. Regardless of whether that was their intent, it sure as hell wasn't what they got. I can't imagine any casual gamers even remotely liking it.

I totally agree, I have an MBA in business and I cant play that damn game! I have more fun playing with excel, honestly!! and man did I play Moo2.... that's really disappointing. I'll give it another try tho but what a poor game so far.

A game should be fun not a heap of info you dont care about !!

And thinking about the real time fight part! what a joke!! it's so ugly, watching tiny dots shoot tiny missiles.

	02-03-2003 06:29									#69
	Got spare money?

Corentor : you really act like a child. Many are saying that we feel that Moo3 is totally no fun. We simply feel like all we have to do is click the "turn" button over and over again. That what we feel. Period. We are not trying to brainwash people or tell you not to enjoy Moo3. We're just stating our point. that's it. No big deal.

	02-03-2003 16:33									#70
	Support Apolyton

Thank you, Starfox. Finally smbd to tell some people what this thread is all about.

	02-03-2003 21:40									#71
	Remove this text

When we complain about the game, we are not being mean, we are simply giving FEEDBACK....


... something the game fails to give the player.



K

	02-03-2003 23:51									#72
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I would rank myself amoung those who are "casual gamers", and I can tell you for certain, that I'm very dissappointed in this game. It is not worth the $70 Canadian that I paid for it and I am going to return it.

After about 15 of my precious hours invested in this game, this is what I was doing:

This game needs a tutorial badly! I don't have 15 to 20 hours to try and "figure it out" like some other players do. For those who do have that time, please know that I'm not critisizing you for investing so much time; in fact, I envy you. I just don't have that kind of time. I have a wife and a 7 month old baby. They are both very demanding.

I've read this threat thoroughly, and some people were critisized because they thought that the game should be fun as soon as they played it. Well, they are right. It should be fun as soon as you start playing it; after all, this is a form of entertainment, so by the very definition of the word "game" this is a must. The exploration of MOO3 should have been a good experience for me, and to be blunt, it was painful.

Plus, I'm reading about the terrible AI and the iratic diplomacy, which discourages me from climbing that steep learning curve.

If anyone disagrees with me, just pick up the manual and try to find anything that would tell you how to colonize a planet. You would think that this is something that would be front and centre, but I can't find any references to how to go about it. I did figure it out eventually, but it was a battle. The manual may have some documentation on how to do it, but how do you find it? It's not in the table of contents and there is no index.

The only reason why most of us are not totally trashing this game is because it has MOO3 as it's title. If this was a name we've never heard before, it would be thrown onto the garbage heap with many other bad games, and most gamers wouldn't even give it a chance.

For those of you who enjoy it. Good for you! That's great! Make me a tutorial.

	03-03-2003 00:16									#73
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, maybe this will help all of yous!

http://apolyton.net/moo3/preview/part6_day.php

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those who want it simple; never, ever, had a computer game!

	03-03-2003 01:34									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well... I returned the game, and do you know what the salesperson said:

"What?... another one!"

Yep... seems like I'm not the only one returning the game.

	03-03-2003 04:29									#75
	Tired of ads?

You're lucky to be able to return games in North America. I didnt know it was possible. In France, we cannot, and I would say it's the same in other european countries.

I agree, a game should be fun right from the start.

You're also right when you say that without its name, not many people would have cared much about this game

Now do I dare say: we want a Master of Magic II??

	03-03-2003 13:11									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I would have to say i agree with you starfox about master of magic II.

Either way if you liked master of magic you should try Age of Wonders 2.The game is almost the same as master of magic. The only difference is in the interface. I doesn't look like civ anymore but more like HOMM.Try it out if you haven't already you won't be dissapointed.

	03-03-2003 13:26									#77
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Corentor

Since MetalKings opinion on the game is obviously seconded by a large number, if not even the majority of players (at least the insignificant number of players posting here and in the ina-forums), he has every right to assume that what he thinks MoO3 should have been actually IS what many/most people think MoO3 should have been.

And actually the developers could easily have been aware of that since a major part of target group is the crowd that played master of Orion 2, and at least to me it is pretty obvious that most people who liked MoO2 will NOT like this so called MoO3. If I can see that, I am pretty sure the devs could have seen that too (if they had bothered to do some research).

I am getting the impression that you cannot take it that most people don't seem to like a game you seem to like.

He's not trying to brainwash people, QS and/or Infogrames did a very thorough job of that themselves.

Certainly I will never again buy a game again unless I have tried it out first. Not even GalCiv, even though so far that looks a lot more like a true Master of Orion 3.

Which brings me to another point. Whoever said that people are not trashing it because it is labeled Master of Orion... I am trashing it BECAUSE it is labeled Master of Orion. Granted, if it wasnt labeled such, I would probably not have bought it before trying it out, and after trying it out I would not have bought this game.
Yet I would not feel as cheated as I feel now. This game might be a fun experience in its own right for some people, though not for me.
But the one thing it certainly is NOT is Master of Orion. They strayed so far from the original games that any resemblance is pure coincidence. They took up the few aspects of both games I didn't like, tossed out the many aspects I did like, added lotsa stuff that I don't like for the most part, et voila, theres a 5X game that has nothing to do with Master of Orion anymore but carries its name to sell well.

Reminds me of what happened with Battletech and Mechwarrior... The latter has nothing to do with the former anymore.. Sad...

Anyway, I hope Infogrames drowns in returned copies...

Lata
Krait

P.S. If you don't like my english don't mention it, I am just a poor german who can't return his copy...

	03-03-2003 13:54									#78
	Full PM-box? Change here!

A few thoughts on the original question: What went wrong?

The game lacks focus. They built this huge empire simulator once, expecting that to be the real game. Then, apparently, someone told them that it is unplayable, so they built in lots of helper AIs and hid many of the calculations from the player.

That was, at best, a half-hearted effort to "dumb down" the game.

Take "Heavy Foot of Government" for example, because that's one of the few things I have a vague understanding of.

Apparently the "HFOG" is supposed to simulate corruption. It eats a little bit of your money every time the AUs are transferred between the various budgets. Obviously that was a normal, visible game concept once, documented and visible on the ledgers.

Then someone decided it was too complicated, and the half-hearted efforts to hide it started. The term got deleted from the ledgers, from the documentation and from all the techs which reduce "HFOG". Those are the techs that now read "Your administration is slightly improved".

And what's the result of all this? Now some of your money just disappears. You get not the slightest idea where it went, all you see is that all the pretty AU figures don't add up correctly anymore, thereby losing any credibility they might have possessed before half of them were deleted for simplicity reasons.

What should have been done? Either remove "HFOG" completely, or let it stay in completely, fully documented. But QS lacked the courage to make either clear decision.

That is showing in every part of the game: No clear decision on what should or shouldn't be "under the hood". All things are a little bit exposed, not enough to fully involve the player, but enough to make him wonder about their function.

	03-03-2003 22:28									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Sillelak's post earlier in this thread frightened me so badly that I intended to leave MOO3 in the Amazon shipping box and return it unopened. But Sillelak recanted and returned to the faith. So Sunday I installed the game.

I am just a newbie, not an experienced gamer, just an ordinary purchaser most of whose experience is with SimCity, StarCraft, Empire Earth, Age of Empires Conquerors, and other RTS games. The only strategy game experience I have was Civilization I when it first came out long ago, whenever that was, no real strategy gaming experience since, and especially no prior MOO experience so I am unbiased on that question. I'm just a complete newbie to modern strategy games who happened to buy the box.

The intro movie blew me away (I love H.P. Lovecraft) and then I spent about six hours playing with the interface, reading the Master's Notes, and reading at the manual. The music is quite good on high-end Sony audiophile grade headphones. During this time I made it to Move 2 in my first game. After six hours I shut down and retired for the night, my dreams filled with hideous and eldritch visions of alien worlds. Cool! Some of those dreams were worth the price alone!

I am completely fascinated, maybe hooked, certainly determined to learn to play MOO3 whatever it takes. And I think whatever it takes is going to be quite a lot. It is clear that I will have to start at the beginning of the manual and read carefully through to the end, maybe the strategy guide also. Then I must download tutorials and guides from websites. Maybe a week from now I will be able to play a game of MOO3.

Oh. Yes, the fonts are blurry, they hurt my poor old eyes. Why are there not different skins for the user interface or some way to modify some of the color selections? Graphics I have seen so far are sort of retro style but nostalgic and remind me of days long gone by when I was much younger, so I like the graphics! I wish they had included a printed example game walkthrough, maybe a tutorial guide, even some helpful tips for new players would have been welcome.

I think this is a wonderful game. I am glad I opened the box. The user interface was obviously designed by "The Mad Arab Abdul Alhazrad" to blind those who sought to probe too deeply into its mysteries, but there is also something enormously, almost hypnotically attractive about this game. It is a shame they do not include the information a newbie needs to play it in the box.

So, most annoyingly and strangely it seems I am going to have to search the web for various poorly translated fragments of the unreadable Pnakotic Manuscripts to even begin to understand what the quest behind the door of this user interface is, let alone set out on it.

I have the definite impression that they presume that all purchasers will have an extensive background in strategy games. Such is not the case. Indeed, from reading all the posts here and elsewhere, it would appear that even experienced strategy gamers find MOO3 a bit of a challenge.

	04-03-2003 06:01									#80
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by wilebill Sillelak's post earlier in this thread frightened me so badly that I intended to leave MOO3 in the Amazon shipping box and return it unopened. But Sillelak recanted and returned to the faith. So Sunday I installed the game.

Wow... you are going to boost Sillelak's ego way too much

He was planning to attack the Antarans in the Orion system when I last talked to him about 2-3 hours ago... I don't think it's too hard to figure out what he could have been up to since then...

	04-03-2003 06:28									#81
	Support Apolyton

That's the defining moment, right there. Far better than attacking those pesky antarans, which was something of a letdown. Heck, the whole raiding thing was.

The Orions - well, they piss you off something royal. At least they did me. Especially after the way they go after players directly. It's much more...personal with them. And it's much more personally satisfying to see 'em die.

Those huge battles are worth it as well. Whoa, those are damn cool. If not for the PD thing, it'd be well worth the crappy graphics of smaller battles - when you see 160 ships against 160 ships, you know exactly why the graphics are the way they are, and you'll feel like they're more than detailed enough.

In my mind, that'd be that 5th X right there.

	04-03-2003 07:17									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by wilebill I am completely fascinated, maybe hooked, certainly determined to learn to play MOO3 whatever it takes. And I think whatever it takes is going to be quite a lot.

Whatever happened to the "A minute to learn, a lifetime to master" approach? ...made famous by Othello of course...I believe.

Even the mechanics of Chess can be learned quickly, but the strategies are endless.

you can say what you want about the Civ games (Civ3 particularly), but the game was easy to learn.

I am wondering how some of you would feel in a MP game, if you won, not because of your more experienced and insightful strategy, but because the other guy just didn't know where to get the info that he needed to play better...so you beat him.

	04-03-2003 07:33									#83
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Some people really like the simple rules, hard gameplay approach.

Others really like simple rules, simple gameplay. And then there's the moo3 - hard rules, hard gameplay.

Civ had a LOT of complexity. It was kinda easy to pick up, but there was a ton of info there that was pretty well hidden in terms of calculations and planning. As deep as Moo in that case? Nah. But it was definitely still there. And I think you take it for granted how 'easy' it is to learn civ games. I have a few very bright friends who never got into it early, and they're just lost now. They don't get it nor do they understand why it's considered fun or addictive. Just seems like a lot of flailing around.

	04-03-2003 07:35									#84
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

In other words,

In a game of Chess, you can assume that both players understand the moves that each piece can make, (the mechanics) , but the player that has the more experience or strategic insight into the game will win.

So if a Chess player beats another Chess player, he can rest easy in his accomplishment knowing that the other understood the mechanics of the game, but the winning players' strategy was superior in that instance.

From what I have read, a win in MP MOO3 would be kinda hollow (unless you knew the opponent and his grasp of the game).

Because, if you are in a random net game, how do you know that the only reason that you beat the other guy wasn't because he just didn't grasp the obtuse interface?

You could be congratulating yourself when the only reason you won was because the other guy didn't know about this tab on that sub-screen...so he didn't get the info he needed to adjust his strategy accordingly.

Maybe I am getting a bit too wacky...

	04-03-2003 07:38									#85
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by kalbear And I think you take it for granted how 'easy' it is to learn civ games.

Point taken, maybe my long time experience with Civ makes me think it is easy to grasp.

	04-03-2003 07:57									#86
	Put an end to popups!

And games won over the net anonymously - no one should take pride in this, ever. I can't imagine that there'll be a whole lot of 'random' games of MoO3 - the game takes too long and is too in-depth. Play it with your friends, so you can rub their nose in it when you kick their butts.

Honestly, this is true for all sorts of games. It's also true for any games of luck, which MoO3 falls into, basically. Yet it still takes some skill to play, methinks. I hope. I would really hate to see that a player could beat another one just by hitting the 'turn' button.

	04-03-2003 09:21									#87
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by kalbear Some people really like the simple rules, hard gameplay approach. Others really like simple rules, simple gameplay. And then there's the moo3 - hard rules, hard gameplay.

Sounds more like 'Hard Rules, Easy Gameplay'. According to many, the only thing hard to beat is the interface.

	04-03-2003 12:24									#88
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Agreed!

That is what ticked me off the most about Moo III. Once I mastered the interface (which I was able to do in 5-6 hours....way too long btw), the game was absurdly simple.

You set your economic and research sliders on turn one, set your Dev Plans (I never bothered.....I developed each planet by hand....it was actually much less hassle), and set the system on 'auto-colonize'. Outside of moving your scout-ships, cleaning out your military queues from time to time, building task forces (later in the game), and building spies, the game plays itself.

What is worse, is you can even 'autobuild' the ships and win even on impossible which means there is actually very little strategic thought involved.

This is a wretched game because it is an Empire Simulation where your AI plays the enemy AI (and always wins), not a game. You, the stupid human, are almost completely superfluous.

-Polaris

	04-03-2003 13:51									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm sorry but you dont get it! Moo3 is not a game for humans, but for your computer to have fun! Yeah, the computer tries to beat fellow computer players through tons of hidden calculations. For him, it's tons of puter pleasure.

We, humans, are just here to click that darn "turn" button over and over

(of course this was just a humorous posting)

	04-03-2003 14:04									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Starfox,

*Gasp* You are correct! How could I have missed the obvious for so long. I apologize for criticising this ultimate new and revolutionary step in strategy gaming.

From now on the computer will play all our games for us; how could I want anything else

For the sarcasm impaired, the above was sarcasm. Any game that 'plays itself' without the human element is wretched....and frankly doesn't even deserve to be called a game.

-Polaris