01-03-2003 10:25									#1
	Are Spies Too Powerful? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Spies are becoming quite an annoyance. I always seem to be the target of way too many missions and countermeasures don't seem to be very effective. I'm either a victim of other races who don't think their actions can be construed as an act of war then get bent out of shape when I respond in kind (double standard?) or I'm a victim of my own people who cry for action then rebel when I crack down. The frustration level is quickly rising...

	01-03-2003 21:30									#2
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I don't think it's that they are too powerful, it's that they are too frequent.

I have my oppressometer set high enough so no one is able to spy on me. I think some spy should sometimes get through, but they can't.
When I get a spy into enemy territory, they break something every turn. This is kind of silly. Perhaps they should break something every five turns or so.

	03-03-2003 05:12									#3
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Good point. They do seem to get alot done...

	03-03-2003 18:17									#4
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I will have to agree that the frequency of the spys is too much, at the very least should be moved to every 3-5 turns. The same should be said for the frequency of getting caught. Spys have a VERY short life span, most don't seem to make it more than 3-4 turns, if the frequency of checks were lessened then it would at least seem like they lived a little longer. I really like the idea of random intervals say every 2-7 turns based loosly on their dagger rating maybe?

	03-03-2003 20:36									#5
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If you're getting attacked frequently, commision some spies and have them stay in the queue without assigning them. Build them with the areas of expertise you're getting hit in and they'll help block.

	04-03-2003 06:12									#6
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Harry Seldon hit the nail on the head.

Just build spies in the espionage areas where you'd getting hit. That tends to solve the problem pretty quick.

	04-03-2003 07:05									#7
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I can get a spy to last ten turns no matter where it is heheh

	04-03-2003 09:14									#8
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What is your cunning set to?

	04-03-2003 18:22									#9
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I think one of the keys to getting them to last is redirection. I'll drop three science spies behind enemy lines and let them get what they can. The enemy will compensate for this. Drop a fourth in to make sure he gets caught immediately and executed. Then drop a military guy in there and watch him bring the empire to its knees.

	06-03-2003 07:53									#10
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I don't have any problem with the spies. Oh about every turn one is either caught, dies, retires, something blows up and a cloacked figure is seen, or my citizens are being terrified but that is o.k.

I build counter spies. It works for awhile. Then after 10-15 turns later I have to research some spy techs or change oppressometer. I usually just research spy stuff.

	06-03-2003 07:56									#11
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Sorry that was a typo. I can't get him to last 10 turns no matter where he is, he dies really really fast.

	06-03-2003 10:13									#12
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It's getting to be a pain to play the O-meter (and as a result finances) like a yo-yo every 5 turns or so but that appears to work for me.

	06-03-2003 13:00									#13
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quote: Originally posted by KrisB I don't have any problem with the spies. Oh about every turn one is either caught, dies, retires, something blows up and a cloacked figure is seen, or my citizens are being terrified but that is o.k. I build counter spies. It works for awhile. Then after 10-15 turns later I have to research some spy techs or change oppressometer. I usually just research spy stuff.

I don't know if these was tongue in cheek, if it is it is funny.
It sure discribes a problem with the game to me. That is just too much activity for spies to suit my taste. If you dropped all of the tech events in the sitrep you would be left with spy stuff as the largest contributer to the log.

	07-03-2003 10:01									#14
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I agree on the frequency of spy events adding to my frustration. Funny how many things we haven't heard about in all of those beta reports and positive reviews when the problems are so prevalent.

	07-03-2003 10:58									#15
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Hee hee....

I love the frequency of the spy stuff

Different people, different tastes...

	07-03-2003 11:37									#16
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True

	08-03-2003 04:38									#17
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I'd have to say that spies are too powerful/frequent.

I'm playing the Evon in one game, have the O-meter set at the highest for my goverment, and have 12+ spies sitting in my queue... and I get hammered every turn... I've yet to have a "Great Leader" live more than 10 turns.

Another problem is that I REALLY don't think the New Orions should send spies against you unless your at war.... I must kill one of their spies every 3 or so turns!

	08-03-2003 06:44									#18
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The New Orions routinely use spies against whoever is in first place among the other players.

The New Orions do this for a perfectly logical reason... they don't want anyone to become a hegemonic and power and thus, of necessity, challenge the New Orions.

I mean... if you were the New Orions, would you do it?

I don't have any problem with that at all.

	08-03-2003 06:58									#19
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I have not messed with inserting spies to any big degree, but I did not see any way to tell the spy to steal tech or direct it to do anything. Just drop it in and let it go? Even Moo1 let you hide/steal or sabatoge.

	09-03-2003 02:53									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos The New Orions routinely use spies against whoever is in first place among the other players. The New Orions do this for a perfectly logical reason... they don't want anyone to become a hegemonic and power and thus, of necessity, challenge the New Orions. I mean... if you were the New Orions, would you do it? I don't have any problem with that at all.

I was under the impression that the NO's did not even percieve the lesser races as a threat.... and were running some great Galactic Darwinism project.

If I was the NO, I would have never let the other races from under my yoke... (or at least conqueor the galaxy within 20 turns). I would also expand... so obviously they are "disinterested" in foreign affairs.

Like I said, If you are at war with them... then their spies should hammer you.... but as it stands now, being in the senate is far more of a problem than not being a member... and that was with the Evon!

So no, I don't think the NO's should spy on senate members they're not at war with.

	09-03-2003 04:10									#21
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You have to read the back story. The NOs are afraid of losing control. That's why they're all over you when you're doing well. I don't think it's necessarily fair that they can insert spies against you when you can't do the same, but that's a post for the bug thread.

	09-03-2003 17:29									#22
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I am on turn 111 of my first game. I currently have DC's with only the Grendarl, and because I'm Nommo they hate me. They are constantly trying to send spies in. I compensated by turning my O meter up a notch and rec. more counterspies.

Here is a summary of what happened in the last 20 or so turns:

They sent in spies, I killed them.

They sent in spies, terrorized my citizens. I killed their spies.


They sent in spies, blew up a building of mine. I sent in a spy successfully. I threatened them, and of course now it's war.

My spy sucessfully blew up 3 buildings before being caught.

Take that, you bastard son of a toad

	09-03-2003 17:52									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Seldon You have to read the back story. The NOs are afraid of losing control. That's why they're all over you when you're doing well. I don't think it's necessarily fair that they can insert spies against you when you can't do the same, but that's a post for the bug thread.

Baut you can insert spies into the New Orion-Empire.
I already succeeded with it (having an average Technology rating of maybe 35 at this time).
Of course they don´t last very long and it isn´t easy to insert them, but you can do it

	11-03-2003 21:14									#24
	Comments on spies Suffering from ads?

I had a first in my last Silicoid game – a leader died, of old age! I was completely shocked since the shelf life of previous leaders was measured in turns (say, 5-10).

Maybe the key is that I wasn’t on the Senate. I also created a cadre of political spies and had 5 before the first leader arrived. So, they had lots of protection since I made sure there were at least 4 political spies at all times.

My leaders gave me a big boost and were very important. One was an Evon that reduced unrest and aided diplomacy. A second was a Meklar that aided industry. A third was a Trilarian that aided research. All had a maintenance fee, but who cares – it was worth every AU.

The Trilarian died of old age. Then the Meklar was assassinated, and my Evon leader died of old age. I think the key was the fence of diplomatic spies I had, which did make me vulnerable to other nasty business. Another key is that the New Orions couldn’t mess with me since I haven’t met them. Even with the Silicoids being Slow, I my leaders had a chance. It is likely that I would have had significant problems if I’d been on the Senate.

My conclusions are:
1) Spy problems are manageable with proper precautions, but only if you aren’t on the Senate or in contact with lots of nasty people
2) The life span of leaders should be augmented by reducing the chance of leader assassination, or (as others have suggested) put them in the penalty box while they ‘recover’ from the assassination. This is the only game where leaders have made a difference – and it was a much more fun game than simply waiting for the inevitable message: Your leader Blixabulb isn’t expected to survive the night….

	12-03-2003 13:36									#25
	Spy suggestions Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think the Diplomatic spy is too powerful. (I hope I have that right, the one that kills leaders.)

I would like to see a few things happen:

(1) Allow Counter-espionage spies to be created. These defensive spies cannot be deployed in another empire, but would remain at home to thwart enemy spies.

The defensive spies might work like this. Each turn, they act like one of the other spy types at random in a defensive role. They might also help to extract information from captured spies.

To balance their power, they would take about 8 turns to train, and cost more than any other spy. (A thorough grounding in all spy techniques must take a lot of time).

(2) Diplomatic spies are eliminated, and their assassination function is merged with the Political spy. I would like to keep a leader for longer than a few turns.

	12-03-2003 15:24									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

By the way, did anyone notice that the "luck" rating of a spy goes down the more you keep him uninserted? What's with that?

Does this mean you either decide to insert spies immediately/in a short while or else make him settle down for a counter-espionage duty? I would appreciate some more flexibility there...

	12-03-2003 15:43									#27
	Re: Spy suggestions Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by star mouse I think the Diplomatic spy is too powerful. (I hope I have that right, the one that kills leaders.) I would like to see a few things happen: (1) Allow Counter-espionage spies to be created. These defensive spies cannot be deployed in another empire, but would remain at home to thwart enemy spies. The defensive spies might work like this. Each turn, they act like one of the other spy types at random in a defensive role. They might also help to extract information from captured spies. To balance their power, they would take about 8 turns to train, and cost more than any other spy. (A thorough grounding in all spy techniques must take a lot of time). (2) Diplomatic spies are eliminated, and their assassination function is merged with the Political spy. I would like to keep a leader for longer than a few turns.

Oh, the one that kills leaders seems to be the Political spy, at least if the description you can read for all the spies are correct.
The diplomatic spy is the one who destroys administration Buildings.

quote: Originally posted by Ancyrean By the way, did anyone notice that the "luck" rating of a spy goes down the more you keep him uninserted? What's with that? Does this mean you either decide to insert spies immediately/in a short while or else make him settle down for a counter-espionage duty? I would appreciate some more flexibility there...

The "Luck"-Value seems to be the Life Expectancy of the Spy.
It goes down every turn and in the end (if it has reached zero or one, don´´t know exactly) the Spy dies or is retired.
AFAIK it has no Influence on this if the Spy is working on Counter espionage or he is infiltrating an enemy empire.

	12-03-2003 17:39									#28
	Re: Re: Spy suggestions Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST The "Luck"-Value seems to be the Life Expectancy of the Spy. It goes down every turn and in the end (if it has reached zero or one, don´´t know exactly) the Spy dies or is retired. AFAIK it has no Influence on this if the Spy is working on Counter espionage or he is infiltrating an enemy empire.

Thanks for the clarification, Proteus

I assumed the "luck" factor was connected with the chance of the spy to be succesful upon insertion. I don't know why the game designers called it "luck", anyway...