03-05-2001 16:20									#1
	Sky Hydroponics Lab Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I seem to be having the worst time with space-based stuff. Is there anything special I have to do get the darn things to produce food for me? Same question applies to the Mining Stations and the energy sats. My last game, I had 31 of the dang things and I still ran into starving citizens. Help....

Chris

	03-05-2001 19:13									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

There are limits to how many resources a base gets from any of the satellites.

A base can only get resources from space up to its base size. Since each citizen needs two nuts, each base needs food from land or sea for half of its food.

A base without an aerospace complex gets half (rounded down) of the resources from space, unless you have the Space Elevator, which removes the restriction.

You can look at the resource map for a base and count the nuts from land or sea, you should find that the nuts from space are included in the total nut count.

If you want all-specialist bases, you need crawlers as well as space based resources.

	03-05-2001 22:31									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Would I be correct to assume, providing you had 12 hydroponics labs, that a size 6 base without an aero would only get +3 Nutrients? This means base size limit first, then non-aero division.

Or would the halfing of the sat nuts (12/2=6) occur first, then the base size restriction occur, which would provide +6 nuts?

	04-05-2001 05:53									#5
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I looked at a game; a new (size 1, no AeroPlex) base it has local production of 5 nuts and gets 1 extra, presumably from the sats. I think that translates into half of the number of sats, max of 1, but it could also be half of 1 rounded up (sigh). Another base, size 4 produces 11, gets 13 - I don't think that proves anything either (double sigh). Just fopr the record, there are 4 food sats in this game. I still think that you get half the number of sats not greater than size, but I don't have a good example in this game.

Looking at the energy, it seems I am getting too much. In the size 1 base with zero energy production, I'm getting 2 free and in the size 4 base I'm getting 6 while only producing 1 - there are no energy banks in these bases and there are 5 energy sats at present.

Just when I thought I knew about this stuff too.

	05-05-2001 09:41									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The energy line includes the following:

Energy produced by workers
Energy produced by Commerce/Trade
Energy produced by Satellites
Energy lost to inefficieny

So the discrepancy could be Commerce income.

	04-05-2001 23:10									#8
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oops
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited May 04, 2001).]

	04-05-2001 23:12									#9
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What are you talking about Mis. That's the wrong way around. If you had a size four base and 6 satellites, you would be answering my question. But in your example, the satellites are less than the base size, so the base size restriction never comes into play.

My questions are specific:

Q1) If a base doesn't have a aerospace complex
AND
If the # of satellites is more than the base size, but less than twice the base size.

Which is true?:
A) The base recieves bonus resources = 1/2 base size.
B) The base recieves bonus resources = 1/2 satellites.


Q2)If a base doesn't have a aerospace complex
AND
If the # of satellites is more than twice base size.

Which is true?:
A) The base recieves bonus resources = 1/2 base size.
B) The base recieves bonus resources = base size.
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited May 04, 2001).]

	05-05-2001 01:07									#10
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Yup, my earlier post was total bollocks. That'll teach me for not paying attention.

Normally I'd apologise for being an idiot (as usual) but I think in this case I'm tempted to tell you to go do your own research

Still, here's your answer:

Size 11 base
No aerospace
19 energy sats
Receives 10 energy from orbitals

So in your example, the size 6 base would get +6.

Don't bother to thank me. Politeness is a sign of weakness.

	05-05-2001 01:32									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Actually, I'm kind of suprised it took so long for someone to tell me that. My PC with SMAC on it is not currently available to me, and I don't have time to do anything other than play more than 2-3 hours a week anyway. My work PC works fine for posting though.

And I think your example does answer my question perfectly.

Your example:
19 sats/2 = 10 (no base limit comes into play)
19 sats reduced to 11 by base size, 11/2 = 6.

Therefore the sats are divided by two first, then the base size limit applies.

That tells me I should always build 28 pre-habdome, assuming I don't build aero in everybase. That's not a common situation for me, but now I know.

	05-05-2001 01:55									#12
	Got spare money?

Yeah, I suppose you could build 28 satellites, but I'm not sure that's necessarily the most cost-effective way (thinking aloud here). Anyway, probably 28 is overkill, since that's catering for a size 14 base with no aero. Your large bases will have probably have air complexes, otherwise you couldn't build the sats?

Actually, it's stupid that I got this confused because this is something I use a lot in SP, and sometimes even in MP

The way I approach it is this:

Pre-habdomes, my max pop is 14-18

Assuming 18 max pop, I will build:
18 energy sats
10-12 food sats
2-3 min sats if they're available

It's latish in the game, and all those energy sats give me a *serious* economy. My bases will grow to max pop with lots of specialists easily on around 12 food sats, so building more pre-hab dome is a waste of cash. With 12 hydroponics sats, bases up to size 6 will get max satellite nutrients regardless of air complexes anyway. By the time they reach size 6, even in pop boom, I can easily afford to rush an air complex in each.

I'd rather spend the cash rushing complexes, not building 16 extra hydroponics. Sats are pretty expensive things - and air complexes confer defence/morale benefits too.

I suppose it would depend on how many bases you had, though. If you're not in an air war, and you've got *tons* of bases, it could be cheaper to do as you say and build the sats. Unlike complexes, there's no support cost and the more bases you have, the more cost-effective sats are of course.

It's an interesting question. There's probably a break-point in terms of the number of bases you have, but I'm not going to attempt to work it out - probably get it wrong anyway

	05-05-2001 03:16									#14
	Put an end to popups!

I'll note the mineral cost of an Aero next time I play, and the mineral cost of a sat (or of each kind if different), without the SP that halves the building cost (or does it double the minerals?). Then we should be able to calc the break point in number of bases easily for a max size base (with & without hab complexes) for all factions, with and without the Aethetic Virtues (4, 6, 7, 9, 11, 12, 14, 16 & 18).

I assume when you say 18 that you frequently play the PK and usually get the Aesthetic Virutes.

Obviously, there's not really much point to calculating all that in SP, since you'll probably get the Cloudbase Academy. Or for SMACX, anyhow.
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited May 04, 2001).]

	05-05-2001 12:25									#16
	Put an end to popups!

That was fixed in one of the patches. Download the latest patch and satellites will cost half minerals with the Space Elevator. This will take care of some pollution problems.

	05-05-2001 18:58									#18
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Paul:

The fix actually went the other way:

· The Space Elevator now correctly doubles mineral production when building satellites.

(extracted from the readme file)

so with the SE, a base with 30 mins normally will now have 60 when producing sats.

G.

	06-05-2001 01:17									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Yes, that's right Googlie. Interestingly, though, I *don't* get the ecodamage I should when building sats. It's as if the extra minerals are nessus minerals. No ecodamage problems at all.

	06-05-2001 01:18									#20
	Support Apolyton

Fitz: Yeah, I often play the PKs - I'm talking MP here, not SP And in MP, you don't tend to end up with loads of bases, so I would definitely go rush aero complex rather than loads of sats.

	06-05-2001 01:43									#21
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I haven't played SP for a long time and I don't think I ever got the Space Elevator in any of my PBEM games, so I may very well have been wrong. The only thing I remembered was that the ecodamage problem of the Elevator was fixed in one of the patches.

	06-05-2001 02:15									#22
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

That's definitely correct Paul - got the Space Elevator in a recent MP game, and I was running ridiculous minerals with no ecodamage when building sats.

	08-05-2001 01:34									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I seem to recall having difficulty figuring out how many to buy in order to end up with the +10 remainder going for you the next turn. IIRC, I concluded that you had to buy 20 extra to get the 10 carryforward, but that it frequently didn't work out right anyhow - probably due to bad math - but seemingly more of that than usual, coupled with a lot of other coincidences like surprise drone riots and enemy units or whatever disrupting the base production leaving me short of the +10 - made me wonder if it was playing with my head.

	08-05-2001 08:42									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If you're asking how to ensure that +10 mins go forward with the space elevator, it's straightforward:

You look at the number of mins the base is producing when it is building a satellite. Subtract 10, double the remainder and subtract *that* number from the build cost.

So if a base produces 30 mins (with the elevator) and the rush cost of the sat is 120, you pay 80 energy to rush the sat and have 10 mins in the build queue next turn. It's absolutely consistent. Units are slightly trickier to calculate

	08-05-2001 22:50									#25
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Misotu,

I agree with your analysis, I must have been having a bad math day.

Sadly, the benefits of the elevator are diluted by rush buying; if you rush buy to the max, you are essentially only getting 1 free round of base production. Ben Franklin would be in a quandry.

As to the units, they definitely have that more complicated cost structure, but IIRC, the elevator only affects orbital improvements. BTW, would it make any difference to the rush buy calculation if another orbital improvement were in the dreaded queue?

John

	13-05-2001 06:26									#26
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No, no difference in the rush-build calculation at all. The only difference is that, if you put anything at all in the build queue, you'll lose the energy bonus provided by a game bug, which only operates if the build queue is empty after a facility is built. Orb improvements are considered to be base facilities by the game.