01-03-2003 19:38									#1
	Ending the tech deal with Vox: Whether, When and How Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The title says it all.

Aeson suggested that we must continue this deal at least up to the beginning of the middle ages. That way, we can enjoy the benefits of Vox's scientific trait and get (most likely) Monotheism (36). Feudalism (32) isn't bad either.
I'd like to add that at some point (by the time GoW has forgotten about HBR), we tell Vox to gift it to us (preferably when this is the last tech needed to leave the Ancient Era, since we have no other use for HBR).
Btw, we do need Polytheism (12) to leave the Ancient Age, right? We certainly wouldn't want to research this lousy tech ourselves, so we may want Vox to research it for us once they're done with Currency (16) instead of buying it.

	01-03-2003 19:48									#2
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Shiber, I doubt that Vox will be able to research Currency and polytheism at a decent pace. We are going to start on republic (28?) once they can start on their next tech, and we research over twice as fast as them, even after they would get Portia back. I'm not going to wait for 15 turns until Vox finally gets that tech

further, polytheism should be on the path for the warmongers on Bob, so we'll get it from them if we need to.

As to ending the deal: I said before in the Vox comments thread that I think that once we give them what we gain from CoL, they are certainly been given more then we got. Republic makes it swing largely in our disadv. again, and after we would get their free tech, we would lose badly on each tech. I think that from that point on at least, we should change the deal, so that we still have a 'most-valued partner', but no longer a 'blindly-give-everything partner'. Also, I don't like that Lux now has more inside information then the other teams, they only stay in the game for fun, and I doubt they are as seriously commited to secrecy as we are.

DeepO

	01-03-2003 20:11									#3
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by DeepO further, polytheism should be on the path for the warmongers on Bob, so we'll get it from them if we need to.

You're right. Not everyone realizes that there's no WW in MP, so some civs would want to research Monarchy (others may want it for the wonder too).

Re: ending the deal, I recommend that we decide on a point (e.g. a few turns after we get the medieval tech that Vox would get for free) where we announce to Vox that we intend to end this trade deal in 20 turns, and would like to set up some sort of a uniform system for future tech trades (e.g. techs will be worth their cost factor in gold times 15, so Monotheism, for example, would be worth 540 gold or Feudalism + 60 gold). The 20 turns ahead announcement would make them less upset at us, I hope.

	01-03-2003 20:17									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

On the other hand, the middle ages are nicely divided (tech wise), in that we can do one branch and Vox the other(maybe switch from time to time when we need something faster).
As long as they are no real threat, we could keep them.
Or try to let someelse destroy them....

But don't worry, I wouldn't use my veto if would persist on clearing the land

quote: polytheism should be on the path for the warmongers on Bob

You mean to get to monarchy so you don't suffer WW? Republic doesn't either in MP.

	01-03-2003 20:50									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

hmm... I briefly overlooked the WW issue... I wonder why this was implemented. Still, there is a good chance that one of Bob's civs goes for it, if only for the trade value.

As to the 20-turn until end notification to Vox, I'm not sure, it would feel quite abruptly. I'd rather transform the deal earlier, so that we get that most-valued partner status between our two nations, I always considered the current deal as dangerous, and not too detailed. We really have to watch out for them becoming suspicous to us, they stated in the last log again that they were afraid of us, by ending the deal unilateral this feeling would only be reinforced. In my mind, a transformation would be better then an end, and if we want to attack Vox in the middle ages (which is highly possible), we might want to start negotiating well before we give republic to them.

DeepO

	01-03-2003 20:51									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Oh, Alva, the middle age is indeed perfect for a 2-partner tech rush, but there is one significant problem: Vox is not nearly as brilliant as us in science. We could become very limited in our freedom if we need to wait for them.

DeepO

	01-03-2003 21:42									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

If we swing it right we could take a commanding lead with Vox pretty quickly. Best case scenario is they get Monotheism, and start on Theology. We don't accept Monotheism from them until we have to, and research Engineering or Feudalism (depends on if/what Lux gets as their free tech). This negates the GL somewhat (whoever gets it), and makes it look less like a trading partnership between us. If we and Vox go into the Middle Ages at about the same time, and we suddenly have their tech, it looks fishy.

If we can include Lux and 1.21f in this somehow, we and/or Vox can be researching second level Middle Age techs before anyone else (other than Lux) is out of the Ancient Era. The dangerous part of this is dealing with Lux with something so important.

	01-03-2003 22:07									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

That looks like a nice plan, but doesn't our problem of infinite tech alliance with Vox remains?

Also, if we would go military, pikes and knights are very important to us, otherwise we might want to go for education ourselves, and be sure to trade it to whoever builds the GL asap.

DeepO

	01-03-2003 22:17									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

Depending on how the situation is on Vox I would even think about stopping trade completely (or at least slow it down)

WW: my guess is exploit. Put a couple of defensive units in enemy terrain, sit back and watch WW creep in.
I'don't agree with it, but that's my guess.

	01-03-2003 22:20									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

A Spartan perspective:

Knights. Pikes. Middle Ages GA and Wonders.

Yum yum.

	01-03-2003 22:24									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Now why didn't this surprise me, but made me smile anyway

DeepO

	02-03-2003 02:14									#12
	Put an end to popups!

I think for the moment there is no clear advantage to deciding to end our tech alliance. Our military is in such a sorry state from an offensive perspective that it will take some time before we could really consider taking Vox out.

In a situation of tech parity, we should have the upper hand against Vox. We don't even know if they have Horses, and will be more likely to build along the Swords path anyways. Our production and commerce capacity should allow us a much larger standing army in any case. With Vox tech parity not being such a concern, focusing on as big a tech advantage as possible on the Bob factions even if it means helping Vox out more than we get out of it (from a beaker standpoint), should be advantageous to us.

	02-03-2003 03:10									#13
	Remove this text

well... there is one disadvantage that scares me a little: Vox might see this deal as a permanent one (they certainly act that way), and the longer we keep it going, the more upset they will be when we end, or change it. That's why I wouldn't mind changing it before we trade republic to them, simply because they won't feel cheated on when we end it after 2000 years.

Other then that, I agree, currently we've got the most important advantage out of this deal, and that is stability on our continent, which allows us to concentrate more on building up our empire, instead of only our military. And that won't change easily, we'll need at least another 40 turns before we can put all this production into a military force.

DeepO

	02-03-2003 03:27									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

They have to realize that eventually the deal will end. We both can't win. I'm pretty certain they are going to understand this, and even if they don't it's not really our problem. We have been talking about Republic to them under the current agreement, and if we renege on those deals, even just to change the deal a bit, wouldn't be a good idea. A good time to modify the agreement would be after we get their Middle Age tech.

Vox is planning on settling Lux's lost land on BOB right?

	02-03-2003 03:57									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

AFAIK, Vox won't find the space to settle, ND and GoW are dividing it amongst themselves...

I can see your reasons for wanting to keep quiet on the deal, and although I don't fully agree, I respect them.

DeepO

	02-03-2003 05:30									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Aeson They have to realize that eventually the deal will end. We both can't win. I'm pretty certain they are going to understand this, and even if they don't it's not really our problem. We have been talking about Republic to them under the current agreement, and if we renege on those deals, even just to change the deal a bit, wouldn't be a good idea. A good time to modify the agreement would be after we get their Middle Age tech. Vox is planning on settling Lux's lost land on BOB right?

I think they realize that we both can't win, they are just in it as long as possible.

And hey, us winning doesn't require their (total) destruction, although a conquest vic will be more fun than say a spaceship or cultural one. Domination would not require their total destruction, maybe exiling them like lux.

I think the time to end the tech agreement is the turn our knights land next to all of their cities. Why give them forewarning that the game has changed?

	02-03-2003 05:36									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I'm with aatw... unless (I don;t remember) we at some point agreed to this 20 turn warning crap.

(Theseus starts sharpening swords and currying the horses... oops, we dont't have either yet!! grrr.)

	02-03-2003 06:24									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Don't forget that if one civ starts to dominate on Bob, we and Vox may need to ally together to deal with them. We don't need to be burning any bridges at present. And Aeson's thinking that we want Vox's (and Lux's, if possible and if it's different) early medieval tech mirrors my own.

Here's the full text of the cancellation provision:

quote: (2) This agreement may be cancelled by either team under the following conditions. (a) The team wishing to cancel the agreement must provide a minimum of ten turns' notice. (b) Both sides, and especially the side initiating cancellation, are required to act in good faith to ensure that the treaty will be ended (or transitioned to some other arrangement) in a way that is equitable to both. Both agree not to manipulate the timing of tech discovery, tech trades with other parties, the ending of the deal itself, or any other factor in such a way as to obtain an unfair advantage over the other.

To end or transition the deal honorably, I think the best timing would probably be to have the end/transition take effect after we've researched two medieval techs and they've researched one (not counting their free one). Of course if the deal still seems to be providing us with an advantage, we could keep it going longer.

Nathan

	02-03-2003 06:54									#19
	Suffering from ads?

My problem with this is not the timing, as I agree in full, but with the way it will end. Sure, we only agreed to a 10 turn advance warning, but if we simply say "hey, we consider we gave you more then you gave us, so we'll end this deal in 10 turns", they are going to be upset. Maybe the situation calls for that, maybe we'll need them for a lot longer, so the moment we end the deal, we are burning bridges. That's something I don't like, even if I like to have our FP build in one of Vox's cities.

DeepO

	02-03-2003 07:00									#20
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I ABSOLUTELY believe in maintaining our honor.

Nathan, two medieval techs? Don;t quite get that...

	02-03-2003 07:00									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

BTW, in order to better assess the costs on both sides, please start keeping a log of everything we got from / gave to them. I think we are currently behind, but will get more then even when the CoL techs are given to Vox, so if we can avoid them getting Knights from us, it would be good for warfare

DeepO

	02-03-2003 07:13									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Theseus I ABSOLUTELY believe in maintaining our honor. Nathan, two medieval techs? Don;t quite get that...

We get their free one plus one other, while they get two we researched. That way (1) the cancellation notice doesn't come practically the moment we get their free tech - at least not unless our research rate is lightning-fast - and (2) each of us will have originated two medieval techs and provided them to the other.

Nathan

	02-03-2003 07:34									#23
	Get a bigger avatar today!

well... I don't think that evens out. We already give republic, which should nearly cover their free tech, add this to all the techs they are getting from us on the CoL deal, and we are being too generous. Maybe this is just an idea, though, and in reality we need to trade 2 techs to get even on costs.

DeepO

	02-03-2003 08:08									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

A natural time to end our tech-trading deal will be when we finally want to put their civ to the sword. So all this talk about "ending the deal" should instead be "when are we planning to attack Vox?" I see no reason for ending the deal and not attacking them, and I'm sure they'll think the same way ("Hm, Gathering Storm has no interest in trading with us anymore...well, at least we can still be friends!"). The fact that we have to give 10 turns notice will be awkward, but hopefully we'll be superior enough by then (militarily and economically) that losing the element of surprise will not be a problem. In any case, Theseus seems to me to be the "Here I am, I'm gonna destroy you now!"-type of warmonger, and not the "Ah-ha! You were unprepared, now I've got you!"-type (not sure about Arrian, he's pretty deceptive...).


Dominae

	02-03-2003 08:19									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

Counting techs passed on from others is problematical because there's no telling what deals might have been worked out otherwise. If we hadn't gotten Mathematics from Vox, we could probably get it from ND or Lux for Code of Laws. Conversely, if we wouldn't supply Vox with Literature and Map Making, they could use Philosophy as at least partial payment for them.

If Vox initiates ending the deal, I would have no trouble at all with viewing the disparity in ancient techs as sufficient compensation for our getting an extra medieval tech. But if we're the ones ending the deal, that places a bit of extra burden on us to make sure it's clear that Vox got at least as much out of the deal as we did. Trying to count the disparity in ancient research as worth a medieval tech would leave doubts regarding whether we treated Vox fairly, especially if we cut off the deal practically the moment we get their free medieval tech. But if the number of medieval techs originated by each side is equal, there can be no real doubt that Vox got the greater value of technology out of the deal, and that we therefore did not take unfair advantage of them by ending the deal when we did.

Nathan

	02-03-2003 08:40									#26
	Tired of ads?

Dominae, I agree that we probably won't want to end our relationship with Vox unless and until we're ready to attack. But we may want to transition our arrangement to a different footing that compensates us for our faster research rate in some way.

Certainly, plans to attack Vox could be a driving force in determining when we end our agreement with them. But an attack on Vox would send the message, "Beware of Gathering Storm. No matter how good your relationship with them seems to be, they'll attack you the moment they view it as in their best interest to do so." That alone would cause enough negative ramifications regarding other teams' perception of us to potentially give us some problems, and the situation will be even worse if Vox can make a reasonable (even if arguable) claim to having been cheated in the tech deal.

Nathan

	02-03-2003 09:00									#27
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay "Beware of Gathering Storm. No matter how good your relationship with them seems to be, they'll attack you the moment they view it as in their best interest to do so."

I would think (hope) thats how the teams are playing it now anyway. The teams are playing to win, after all. Well, Vox (and perhaps Lux) isn't playing to win anymore, but I think the others are. Aren't we? Don't we think the above phrase about the other teams?

Its unfortunate that we did not build an expiration date into initial tech deal, then we could let it lapse and not worry about it.

	02-03-2003 09:09									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Certainly, plans to attack Vox could be a driving force in determining when we end our agreement with them. But an attack on Vox would send the message, "Beware of Gathering Storm. No matter how good your relationship with them seems to be, they'll attack you the moment they view it as in their best interest to do so."

I agree. I've tried to figure out a "nice" way out of our relationship with Vox (one that will allow us to declare war on them perfectly legitimately later on), but failed. Certainly we want them to feel like they've have not been cheated by us. The problem is that the more we try to do this, the more they will feel betrayed when we finally put an end to the deal.

Perhaps we could somehow engineer a situation that would sour our relationship with Vox without making us look like the bad guy. Maybe Lux's (unwanted) appearance could be used to further this end.


Dominae

	02-03-2003 10:34									#29
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

A legitimate option is for us to stick with the alliance as it is though. It's been profitable for us, and even if it's more profitable for Vox in the future, we'll still be getting some advantage from it. A joint strike on BOB of some type would surely go better than us weakening each other and then the victor (us ) heading over on our own. It shouldn't tip the balance of power between the two of us either.

There really isn't a pressing need in the next 40+ turns to end or change our trading relationship is there? It obviously can't go on indefinitely, but at this point letting Vox ride our coattails (helping as they can) to #2 while we take care of bigger threats looks like the best option. If we are going to do this though, we need to make plans about how to leverage our Middle Age tech lead into territorial gains on BOB, while making our border with Vox as defensible as possible for the inevitable.

	02-03-2003 13:03									#30
	Suffering from ads?

If Vox isn't any better than we think they are, I'm not so sure war with them is inevitable. We can get a domination victory with us controlling two thirds of the world and them one third, right? And I think they'd regard that outcome as a success for them.

Dominae, as I recall, one of your biggest objections earlier earlier to allying with Vox for the long haul was that you felt like we should try to find a stronger and more stable partner elsewhere when we could. Do you still think that's feasible, except maybe with Lego?

Nathan