01-03-2003 21:10									#1
	A Summary. Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ok, having been cruising these boards for a fair while now, wondering when the hell I'm going to get a copy (Shop - March 7th, Amazon.de - March 12 to April 1, am taking bets ), I think I can sum up what's causing the most grief.

Seems to me that the difficulty inherent to the learning curve is being exacerbated by the cumbersome 'excel-like' interface, and that there are few major gripes other than that.

So, hypothetically, if the interface was smoother and never irritated you by making you wade through needless data to get what you need, or give you a headache when you try and take in so much information, would the game be getting such a mixed reaction?

I think it wouldn't, the majority seem to be being thrown by the game's looks, not the games ... how did someone put it? ... the game's 'soul'.

So, if the interface was vastly improved, what would you all be complaning about? Seriously, I'd like to get everyone's opinions too, not just the fanatics and "anti-fans'".

Depending on this thread, I might just cancel both orders.

	01-03-2003 22:52									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: So, if the interface was vastly improved, what would you all be complaning about?

That wouldn't change much, IMHO the messy interface is just the symptom of a problem that lies much deeper.

The core of Moo3, the economy, is so "complex" (read confusing) that nobody wants to deal with it in a game. There are various kinds of Points and various AU figures, all modified by invisible obscure modifiers, and never adding up to anything meaningful. The only way to keep the game remotely playable was introducing the Viceroys, who relieve you of the mindboggling task of trying to figure out how this game actually works.

How could the interface be any different? It does a good job of keeping you away from those parts of the game you wouldn't want to see, mess with, or understand in the first place.

I usually care about the empires I build up and manage, but not in this game. AIs raise the colonies, AIs pile up the faceless technologies, AIs design the ships, AIs build the ships, AIs fly the ships, AIs fire the weapons. I as the player am disconnected from all that.

After playing the game for hours, I have never felt like accomplishing anything. Moo1+2 were full of these little moments which told you that you made progress, but here a few numbers change and some text string, buried among dozens of other text strings, is displayed.

This, despite it's name, is not a Master of Orion title.

Read Tom Chicks review again, as I feared he was right on target with everything he wrote.

	02-03-2003 00:15									#3
	Got spare money?

Ok

How about if the interface was altered to give easy info access like MOO2s right-click, had a few layers removed, and something in the under-the-hood mechanics was altered, having not played the game this is only a stab in the dark, but what about doing away with the concept of 'test tubes' and just having planets generate RPs? Ok so it'd need some tweaking, but you see where I'm going here.

What else?

(Corentor, AeternitasXIII, Arnelos, kalbear, I'd appreciate your response more than others).

	02-03-2003 00:32									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

i would say toms much attacked review was close to the mark... and it was funny.

as for the learning curve... it isnt that bad imho.

it isnt user friendly but it is manageable. i played about a 100 turns (4 hours all of which were interesting... perhaps not FUN! but interesting...) to get a handle on everything and then i started a new game which i am still playing (currently in the late 300's)...

im curious how you go into debt when you are ruinning a surplus. the manual says governemnt debt is only for timed games... which naturally as a single player i am not playing... yet i keep borrowing money despint a huge surplus and healthy economy.

	02-03-2003 02:58									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by darcy I usually care about the empires I build up and manage, but not in this game. AIs raise the colonies, AIs pile up the faceless technologies, AIs design the ships, AIs build the ships, AIs fly the ships, AIs fire the weapons. I as the player am disconnected from all that.

I don't understand why ppl keep saying this. About the
only thing YOU can't control is what gets built in a DEA
or possibly a specific tech that gets researched. You CAN
decide what goes into a build queue, what goes into a
ship design, where your TFs go, what planets get
colonized, and what takes place in combat.

	02-03-2003 04:44									#6
	Tired of ads?

I don't understand why ppl keep saying this. About the
only thing YOU can't control is what gets built in a DEA
or possibly a specific tech that gets researched. You CAN
decide what goes into a build queue, what goes into a
ship design, where your TFs go, what planets get
colonized, and what takes place in combat.

***

Yeah, you can. But you've only got a 3-deep build queue that takes at *least* three screens to get to. And you can decide what goes into your ship, though for the life of me I can't get enough feedback from the ship battles to understand the difference between the various choices. And you can definitely decide where your task forces go, though you have to build them first according to the rules provided, and I've found no way to reconstitute them after they're formed.

You can also decide which planets get colonized but, after 750 or so turns now, I can't get enough feedback to know whether to go for the green normal or the yellow rich or the red very rich. Not to mention who the heck knows what the planet specials are? And, although you can sort the planets you own, can you sort them on production, food, etc. the way you could it the older MOO?

I guess you can decide what goes on in combat too, I just haven't had the patience to do that -- I know lots more about the little-multicolored-balls-orbiting-the-planet cursor than I do about ship combat capabilites. My patience wears very thin on the e v e r y s i n g l e turn diplomacy bit too. Don't eventually you end up saying just pass whatever blippin bill you want to pass?

I went back to good ole MOO2 impossible huge for a moment, and you do notice that MOO3 has more weight, more potential, and more stuff. But MOO2 has the context. I can SEE where I am in the galaxy. I can SEE what ships you've got. I can SEE the impact of my technologies. I can SEE what I need to do and I can have some fun figuring out how to do it.

Last edited by Quag on 02-03-2003 at 05:02