02-03-2003 21:24									#31
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The AI does nothing to hurt each other or the player to any significant degree.

The exception seems to be the New Orions who send their big fleet to punish people it doesn't like periodically. And boy does anyone on the recieving end of that get their ass kicked.

	02-03-2003 23:32									#32
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Tried the same on "Easy" difficulty and to be honest I really coudnt tell any differance.

200+ turns passed and the AI had yet to attack my defenceless planets. (Antarians attack one time when you piss them of but thats it, I still dont loose any planets).

Im getting really annoyed at Quicksilver HOW DARE THEY RELEASE A GAME WITH NO AI!.

Moo3 now is like a Sim game, toying around, killing colony after colony. Its like playing solitary chess, playing ping pong against a wall its a game with no opponent.

This ISN'T A STRATEGY GAME, last time i played a strategy game atleast I needed SOME troops to win, in ANY OTHER strategy game I played I could be eliminated or atleast LOOSE (Like in Moo2) and that should be a part of the game, imean whats the point playing knowing you cant loose it defeats the whole purpose of playing.

Heres the funny part: I defeated the game on Impossible NOT building a single task force (exept colony ships). Recovering all "X". And they call this a strategy game, yikes.

I spit in Quicksilvers general direction.

Now how the hell on earth could the beta testers miss this, im sorry but Moo3 is a game that you cant be eleminated in, cant loose any planets, you just play "X" turns untill you win unless you loose by "Orion Senate Victory" but if you turn that off you CANT LOOSE. That a strategy game according to Quicksilver.

They really did a bad job indeed and dont deserve another game sold.

Take this as a warning all you people thinking to buy Moo3.

	02-03-2003 23:57									#33
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

What I can say something for certain is that I'll think twice when I see a game made by QuickSilver.

If they have a problem with AI, I won't buy their games.

	03-03-2003 00:32									#34
	Inflate your Upload Space

I just finished an easy game of Moo3 and all the AI did was attack my colony ships and defend itself from my attacks. At the end of the game when i had about 40 armadas of long range beam cruisers and carrier DNs attacking Orion, 2 other civs at war with me and with a strong military didn't even move a finger to attack one of my colonies, so there goes the theory of the AI responding with equal force of the player. There was even a case when they had a fleet of 50 ships in a somewhat recent colony of mine and all they did was blockade it.

I confess i don't like getting my arse kicked by an AI, but this is ridiculous...

	03-03-2003 00:32									#35
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I give. I have tried 3 games now all at normal difficulty and there seems no sense to it. In the first two games I achieved the #1 power ranking without really trying, indeed without reading most of the manual. I don't really know what to make of this game or what is going on, but after the obligatory 20-25 hours, I have had enough. It seemed fun for a while, but I have all but given up on even reading the sitrep at this point - so much data that seems all but meaningless anymore. I agree with one of the review out there that stated they "have balls" for trying this. They do indeed; I just don't think it worked. I will watch the boards on occasion and hope for some improvement, but for now, the game goes on the shelf...

	03-03-2003 03:47									#36
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Haupt. Dietrich So what's the latest word? Is it true that the AI doesn't invade your planets? For the developers to delay and delay and delay releasing Moo3 only to have a problem like this slip through is absolutely unacceptable. That is poor business. What on earth did they spend their time on then? The computer gaming industry is getting to the point where it is not worth it for the customer to waste his money on buying games. If computer gaming companies cannot produce nearly bug free games out of the box then they are a bunch of muppets who donot deserve my hard earned cash. Imagine buying a home appliance, a new car, etc. and having the manufacturer tell you that don't use it but hold onto your purchase. We will issue a fix for you in about a month. We are sorry for this and realize that before we release a product to market it should work. But you know what? You (the customer) are all a bunch of losers and all we want from you is your money. bwahaahahahah I say bullocks!!!!!!! F them and their evil greed. I'm sticking to console gaming because atleast console games work right out of the box.

Than the manual doesnot tell you how to play the game.
I was born with than damage speech center which can also they found out lately can effect you abilitiy to write clear and well, I wonder what the manual writers acuse are, I than hight hight on dope might be one of they acuse.

	03-03-2003 04:10									#37
	Put an end to popups!

Same here, I haven't read the manual nor have I read any documentation at all about this game before I just started my first game.
So I went with a medium cluster galaxy, 16 races.
I was playing standard humans, setting easy to try it all out.
At turn 50 I was PR 7th. Found two insectoids and the Ithkul by then.
I was in a defensive alliance with one of the insects and on the other (ranked first at the time I immediately declared war).
So, I slowly build up my troops and ships and around turn 100 I went on the offensive. BTW I haven't been attacked by anything until that turn although I colonized right to about 7 turns using starlanes away from my chosen enemy.
So I went in and found no opposition at all. I am at turn 160 right now and all I do is sit around waiting for new troops to arrive so I can conquer the rest of them klackons. And although I only conquered maybe 25 percent of their planets over the time I still didn't have to build newer ships. Those mass drivers and fusion beams are still enough.
I tried another game playing nommo. I wasn't attacked until turn 120 when I was elected Senate Leader.
Going to try impossible next. See if that's easier or harder.

	03-03-2003 04:29									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I haven't bought the game yet, and am beginning to feel glad that I haven't.

Has anyone of the many beta testers who were in here bragging about the game responded to this AI issue?

	03-03-2003 10:44									#39
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX I haven't bought the game yet, and am beginning to feel glad that I haven't. Has anyone of the many beta testers who were in here bragging about the game responded to this AI issue?

ha! They were too busy regaling us with their stories of defeating the AI against incredible odds!

Little did they know that the odds were not as incredible as they seemed...

	03-03-2003 11:03									#40
	Put an end to popups!

If you declare war on all the AI players from turn one, then what do you think will happen? They will switch to a war economy before they even has basic infrastructure, they wont be able to support a war so soon. thats why wars happen when the AI gets more developed.

	03-03-2003 12:32									#41
	Got spare money?

Just read a report by someone who had the AI invade one of its planets (with 30 Divisions), but only after blockading the planet for a hundred turns.

I think the AI *is* there but they screwed it up by setting some decision-making-modifiers wrong or something like that.
(further evidence of that is the war-peace-war-peace loop and the abundance of harrass fleets (the liitle fleets showing up in your empire correspond in size to a harrass value in one of the spreadsheets). The behaviour mentioned above could be because the AI has orders to not invade until having blockaded for a while (and that "while" is too long or depends on the wrong triggers).

Should be fixable in a patch or even a modpack.
At least I very much hope so.

	03-03-2003 14:37									#42
	Put an end to popups!

I have played 4 games at 250+ turns on easy. Had the same results as many people here, never invaded, 2-4 frigates. I had always noticed that the AI never invade with ground forces, but I had always had large fleets close by so I thought that had something to do with it.

$50 bucks so wasted...

	03-03-2003 14:55									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Guys,

If you want your asses kicked by the AI check out Galactic Civilisations: www.galciv.com

I havent plyaed Moo so I cant really compare the two. But i am sure they are two very different games. Nevertheless GalCiv shapes up to be one of the best and the most challeging games ever. It is coming out on the 26th of March.

FredW

	03-03-2003 14:56									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The AI has certainly been fighting me and I've lost 4 planets to convincing invasions. and encountered many battle fleets of 10+ ships. They certainly aren't as aggressive as I would expect, but their colonies are far better protected than mine would be.

Is their ability to expand and invade being crippled by the amount they invest in defensive measures? I would have said so. The Orions certainly have no problem kicking ass when they decide they want to and the others do manage it occasionally. The good thing is that this sort of shift in AI spending priorities shouldn't be impossible to tweak.

Unless you're only shooting for a sole survivor win though this is not really a problem. They're objective is not to kill you, it is to get elected to the senate or to find the X's before you. They're certainly very capable of expanding their empire and getting a senate win. I'm not sure about the X factor yet.

	03-03-2003 15:08									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I don't have for now MOO3, but this all sounds a little like passive AI is vanilla CtP2.
CtP2 uses forces machmaking system to see can one stack defeat another stack, and when should it attack.

But the problem was:
-It was never patched and never properly tested.
-That variables used are not good in describing chance of victory for a stack.
-That if you tweak assault parameters too low you get suicidal attack from AI, and if you tweak them to high you gain very passive AI.
-That this mechnic does NOT get noted that stacks are limited to 12 units (are there some limits in MOO3?), so sometimes IS good to attack with not so good group of 12 units, if you can attack again several rounds later. So it never happens that if one stack could never match needed paramenters, that AI makes more then one stack for same task, and then attacks with first (with 12 units maxed) and after it with second. Instead AI just becomes forever passive if your defenses are too big.

P.S.
I have no idea how can this help to MOO3 (no idea how MOO3 military AI works), but never the less it was an inetersting thing to point out.

P.P.S.
Regardless of anything I would still buy MOO3 soon.

	03-03-2003 16:18									#46
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Haon If you declare war on all the AI players from turn one, then what do you think will happen? They will switch to a war economy before they even has basic infrastructure, they wont be able to support a war so soon. thats why wars happen when the AI gets more developed.

Your'e so wrong, it really shouldnt matter if i declare war from turn one. Saying that the AI cant handle it because of that is a pity defense for they lousy AI in this game.

Turn it around then it dosnt matter if im playing on turn 600+ when the AI has tons of planets it still wont harm you.

The game is broken period

Also why does it work in Moo2 if I declare war on turn1 they'll come and kill me if they can. And moo2 is what 7 years old.

	03-03-2003 17:21									#47
	Tired of ads?

The only major problem with MoO 3 right now is the fact that the AI is not nearly aggressive enough. The exact reason for this requires that one knows how the AI in this game works but at least this aspect of the game should be easy to patch (assuming that it is only a set of AI parameters that need to be adjusted). I am quite certain that the first patch will make major improvements and a second will then make it just great.
Some people have said that the AI was first too hard and then was reduced, but why reduce the AI of the impossible setting? The purpose of the easy setting is to allow the game to be easy to learn while the normal setting should be a decent challenge once one has the system figured out, while the hard and impossible setting is for those who have devised definite stratagies using the system. As there do not seem to be any major operational bugs in this game (except maybe the direct x thing [I use Win XP so I dont use direct x]) it should not take long for a fix of the AI to be released.

	03-03-2003 18:00									#48
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Unconquered The AI can be good at defending there colonies with system ships and ground forces, but the largest starship force I have seen by the AI is 5 Frigates. The AI definately needs to be "beefed-up" in the area of offensive combat...

I played a game and was attacked by a couple of cruisers and a battleship. It was around turn 300. The AI never attacks me but I'm playing on easy right now so I figured that was par for the course.

	03-03-2003 18:12									#49
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Win XP does use Direct X
8.1b (i think) ships with winXP.

	03-03-2003 20:14									#50
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

- XP does use direct X? Well I did not bother to install the driver when I installed the game, guess I already have the right version.
- By way of AI, I have found it to be fairly good on the defence. I have seen home planets with 16 ships in turn 150.
- I think that planetary defense is too powerful. Beefing up planetary defense compared to MoO 2 is a good idea as it gives the peaseful races a better chance (they would always get wiped out by the aggressive races in MoO 2). But I think that they have gone overboard and now it is too difficult to attack weel established planets.
- Off topic, had anyone noticed how powerful carriers and indirect attack ships are? I guess that it is realistic, remember that in WW II the great battleship was made obsolete by the carries, and now advanced missles, in conjunction with jets, do most of the fighting before the special Ops clean up.

	03-03-2003 21:33									#51
	Increase Your PM Length

I've been attacked now and then in most games. Usually never a huge attack, but in one of my more recent test games... I played as Ithkul, turned on auto-expansion and explored a little in a small cluster, 16 races, impossible. Eventually had another race attacking me, was blockading my planets with 6-10 sized fleets at first. It also went and invaded my only outer-system colony. Attacked my homeworld with fleets sized 20 or more. Also tried to invade my homeworld, but that got destroyed along with their fleet. Eventually they killed me once I destroyed my planetary defenses.

Planetary defenses seem too strong, given that theres MANY more planets here in MoO3, system defense ships that will be naturally better then starships at first, and the mass size, its wondered why they included them. My tech was in the 10s and killing AI fleets that had 20s. But anyway once I died I used the bug(feature?) to continue playing as another race. The AI player had alot of defense for his worlds. About 20 system ships for major systems, 5-10 for minor. With about 20 starships in reserve(no tfs deployed). He also had about 50 troop transports, with only like 10 actual troops in reserve. The computer it seems like to station alot of troops on planets.

But anyway, I declared war on everyone with him, wiped out some fleets with planetary defenses(including NO I think), and then one undefended planet that shared a system with another race got invaded. 87 units, 40 or so Mobile, 20 marines, 20 support, biggest invasion i've seen yet. Wether this increase was because of the changes I made to the militaryAI.txt or not are in question. Still trying different things.

	03-03-2003 21:41									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Wow, a game where they were actually aggressive! Backup that modified MilitaryAI.txt of yours, or put it up for all of us to peruse. You just might have tweaked the right values.

	03-03-2003 21:55									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Its kind of hard to tell without testing, its annoying to try to replicate things/go through things just to test something. But heres the file, not sure if it helps that much or not. The main things I increased was the numbers used to decide wether to build a ship, and the border forces deployment.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/chaoslord/MilitaryAI.txt

	04-03-2003 03:06									#54
	Re: Is anyone getting attacked by the AI? Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Ankh I just want an confirmation, because iv'e stopped defendeing my planets, no system ships are nessesary, no missile bases nor orbital stations are nessesary either. Because the AI CANT invade planets. They just hang around in orbit. If you lucky you can loose a small colony because of blockade but thats it. This is really stupid. I just want a confirmation from someone: has the AI EVER taken a planet from you by force?. Anyone?. Ive been playing more then 500 turns now, and I have yet to see an attack made by the AI. Atleast in Moo2 i could get wiped out by a superior fleet bombarding system after system. Now they just go to one solar system and hang around there, their fleet growing larger over time but they never move. Has anyone ever been wiped out in Moo3? This is really bad, its Call to power II all over again.

I think you gotta betta version ...or smoked to much hobbit weed

but ya I have been attacked and invaded I am the klakons in a large two arm....and as soon as I started build up of my forces everyone declaired WAR and began herassing my planets and even invaded one remote planet....it was the ithkul...they won, however, I think a lot depends which race you are what other races start next door etc...

and bye the bye I am on easy!!

hey you guys who don't like the game stop whinning and go get you money back and shut up PLEASE

your really bringing the rest of us little hobbits down...

	04-03-2003 04:15									#55
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The way the AI is done it doesnt really vary from difficulty to difficulty. The first AI they had was too strong and would frustrate people new to the game (which is mostly everyone upon release) because it fully understood how to develop everything perfectly and it was very aggressive. That was a big problem because they werent able to spread it over the difficulties. So, for release they put the AI in neutral until a few weeks after release when many ppl learned the game then they will bump it back up. Then u will all start complaining about how hard the AI is and that it is too hard on lower difficulty levels.

	04-03-2003 04:21									#56
	Re: Re: Is anyone getting attacked by the AI? Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by azuldracul but ya I have been attacked and invaded I am the klakons in a large two arm....and as soon as I started build up of my forces everyone declaired WAR and began herassing my planets and even invaded one remote planet....it was the ithkul...they won, however, I think a lot depends which race you are what other races start next door etc...

So, you went to war with the entire galaxy, and all that happened was you lost a remote colony?

That seems to match the other reports regarding lack of aggressiveness in the AI.

	04-03-2003 05:35									#57
	Re: Re: Is anyone getting attacked by the AI? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by azuldracul I think you gotta betta version ...or smoked to much hobbit weed but ya I have been attacked and invaded I am the klakons in a large two arm....and as soon as I started build up of my forces everyone declaired WAR and began herassing my planets and even invaded one remote planet....it was the ithkul...they won, however, I think a lot depends which race you are what other races start next door etc... and bye the bye I am on easy!! hey you guys who don't like the game stop whinning and go get you money back and shut up PLEASE your really bringing the rest of us little hobbits down...

Im sorry to break this for you but im not _WHINING_ i'm telling the facts and pointing out an OBVIOUS flaw in the games design, its called constructive criticism something you should learn someday maybe.

You still only lost a remote colony in all that time. Congratulations that's more that iv'e lost in more then 2000+ turns playing.

Play a few more games (try a small galaxy) and you'll soon find out how broken the AI is then you can come back here and apologise.

	04-03-2003 08:20									#58
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by FredW Guys, If you want your asses kicked by the AI check out Galactic Civilisations: www.galciv.com

Sounds good.

quote: (from site Most computer AIs in PC games are what we call "reactive". They look at the current game state and then make decisions based on that right then and there. In Galactic Civilizations, computer players come up with a strategy that may take many turns to bear out which can cause players who think they're winning (ahem) to suddenly discover that a trap has been sprung.

I´ll wait for what others say (I hope many here on Poly will spring the trap for me, like with Moo3 ), but if it does match the hype, this one will be a keeper!

	04-03-2003 08:29									#59
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Ankh Also why does it work in Moo2 if I declare war on turn1 they'll come and kill me if they can. And moo2 is what 7 years old.

It did work in Moo1. But, like with movies: Sequels are often much worse than the original.

	04-03-2003 19:49									#60
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There is a player made Mod here for the Military AI:-

http://www.ina-community.com/forums...731#post3572731

I cannot try it as I dont get the game until Friday (UK).
However the guy appears to know what he is doing.
Worth a try anyway.

Take the second link he gives as it will auto install.