02-03-2003 00:56									#1
	Save files for all! Support Apolyton

I know we haven't been giving the save files to those who aren't part of the government, but is it really neccesary anymore? Basically everyone who is still even paying attention to the forum are ministers and previous ministers. I think we can safely attach the save game to the forum and not have people cheat or play ahead or anything.

Discuss

	02-03-2003 00:58									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Those elitist bastards...

	02-03-2003 01:13									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

giving the save files to all basically turns it into a succession game with somewhat random playing order. I think hiding the file early on still is a good idea. As for this particular game (game #2), as it will likely finish under president Ixnay's watch this month, we might be able to get away with it. The problem of course would be setting a precedent - is that something we want to be doing? We've had 2 discussions on precedents this turn reguarding moving units. On the side for - some of the players who aren't paying as much attention at the moment may come back - Dr. Spike has posted that not seeing the save file is why he droped out of this Civ group. Perhaps we could try on this month and see how it goes? If it seems to work, maybe set parameters as to when full access becomes available (kind of like how the Apollo Program gives full access to the map).

I guess i'm just worried giving the save out would just make it another succession or comparison game.

	02-03-2003 02:11									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

HTower:

Why be a minister? What role would a minister have without restricted access to the save?

Secondly, if we give saved games to everyone, how can we be sure that all the people out there will not dl the game and play ahead?

You make a good point that the only ones still interested in the game seem to be the ministers, or former ministers, but would opening the save encourage violation of the rules?

Regarding my own violation, I'm perfectly willing to accede to the rules laid down, don't be opening the save access for my sake.

Dr. Spike and War4ever have had the chance to participate in this demo game, heck we offered Warz my position if he ran. He chose not to, and we have not seen him post much since.

Perhaps we could do the same for Dr. Spike, offer him a ministry?

Unless some of these issues are addressed, I'm afraid I must vote no to your proposal HTower.

	02-03-2003 02:22									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

SCG: by giving out the save game, i don't meanletting everyone play, I mean allowing everyone to look at it so ministers don't have to do post a zillion screen shots of cities, foriegn affairs windows, maps.

obiwan: you have ministers to colate information and present plans to the president. The minister of science will still post the official research polls, war minister will still be in charge of planning attacks, troop dispositions. The only change will be that the citizens will be better informed.

	02-03-2003 02:39									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by H Tower SCG: by giving out the save game, i don't meanletting everyone play, I mean allowing everyone to look at it so ministers don't have to do post a zillion screen shots of cities, foriegn affairs windows, maps.

in succession games, one person plays for several turns and then the game is passed to another player. in the mean time, depending on the interest in the game, all the players (and even some non-players) comment on what happened, suggest strategies, and in a few cases, some people have played some of the older saves to see how their ideas would have worked out. That did lead to a couple of interesting side discussions.

In a demo game where the save is available, the only difference that i see is that we would vote once a month on who would be the one who would officially play the next set of turns.

As for what ministers do, my misunderstanding of the exact jobs of each minister last turn shows that ministers could be made effectively obsolete if we give the save out. We do make saves available after the game is over (or at least we did in game 1), so if people want to replay their ideas, they can do it after the official game is finished.

	02-03-2003 03:26									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

well, there are numerous other democracy games and the minister position isn't dead there. but whatever, it was just a suggestion

	02-03-2003 04:47									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I don't support the idea of giving everyone the game file.

First, I think it *does* encourage people to run for Cabinet positions. It certainly does influence my interest, though of course I can't speak for everyone.

Second, I think it is an important part of the game that Ministers have some influence over the areas of the game to discuss. There is such a thing as having too many suggestions. If everyone has access to the game file, there are likely to be so many competing strategies that it will become chaotic. Everyone would become a quarterback, if I may use an American Football analogy.

Third, and I dislike saying it, but I think the temptation to cheat (or explore too far through well-meant but misdirected good intentions) would become a problem. Ministers are usually players that have participated a couple of months and caught on the "the rules". New citizens or "drive-by" observors are less likely to realize the consequences of revealing information we should not have. I can easily imagine someone new wanting to make a good impression by posting on the consequences of a strategy after he has played through the options a few times. It is easier to keep Ministers from such actions then to keep 20 people from the same. Potential removal from Cabinet Office *is* a control.

And last, there are just some people who would enjoy deliberately revealing information (or dis-information). Call me paranoid if you want to, but it does concern me.

	02-03-2003 04:54									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Considering that I won't be around to administer polls, for a couple of weeks anyway... maybe it would be a good idea to share info via a save file? At least then, people wouldn't be waiting for trade stats that aren't coming.

Aside from that, I think giving the save file to Ministers only is a better idea - assuming that all Ministerial posts are adequately filled. We have Ministers who are away this month, we have unoccupied Ministries - so the situation is not ideal, as it stands.

	02-03-2003 05:02									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The Vice President offers to stand in for any Minister who must be AFK for several days. It's not like I have a lot to do otherwise...

	02-03-2003 05:09									#11
	Suffering from ads?

I have posted in the past supporting the notion that we restrict the save to just the Ministers. BUT, now I am hoping to get back into this game and there is a clear problem in attracting Ministers, I have to revise that opinion.

My issue with wanting to be a Minister here again stems from the fact that I don't know what is going on. There is no substitute for first hand experience, and after 4 months away it is badly needed. I have managed to make my way back into both SMAC and Civ3 demo games thanks to the turnchats and readily available saves. I am struggling with the Civ2 game.

The flipside is that this game is so much less complex in the later stages than Civ3 and SMAC, and so if you have the save, you are about as able as any Minister. It doesn't require Regional Administrators or even prior experience in the role to satisfy Ministerial position.

Despite this, it certainly seems that the majority of those here are heavily involved in the game anyway, and know about not cheating. The big issue seems to be lack of interest - making the save available would help here, at least in my case. By contrast, I cannot remember a time we had a severe problem with cheating - once or twice people may have played slightly ahead or changed something, but soon realised their mistake and apologised.

In conclusion then I want the save to be available to all from now. It won't solve all the problems, but it may well help a lot.

	02-03-2003 06:04									#12
	Remove this text

Having never completed a game of either SMAC or Civ III (yeah, i do have SMAC, just never finished a game), I can't make the comparison. And we do seem to be lacking in minister candidates. That does seem to make at least 2-3 people who might have increased interest with having a save. I was wondering if Mr. WIA would post on this

I'm still hesitant to making saves available at all times. After all, that was one of the reasons i became a minister (and the positions were available). But as I posted earlier, this month could serve as a test to see how it does, since the game is nearing its completion.

in any case, its turning into a good discussion

	02-03-2003 17:00									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

After a 3 month vacation I came back didnt have a clue as to what was going on. A savefile would help me get up to date asap without having to read through dozens of old threads.

But I think that if we gave the save file to all there would be even less interest in ministers posts.

And I always liked the system of ministers posting threads with screenshots and polls.
( Even if it is a pain in the ass sometimes ;-) )

	02-03-2003 17:28									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

atawa - I feel your pain, honestly. Last I remember (as Trade Supremo) in September we were shipping Caravans exclusively to China and hoping to build Leo's Workshop! What I have read here so far puzzles me to say the least, and the catch-up curve is so much greater.

So... are you implying we give the save to certain interested people who are not Ministers instead of posting it freely? This is an interesting idea, it means we could kind of award a trust in posters who are interested enough. But how would we do this, and since it is more elitist than just allowing the Government officials to have the save, how would we choose these lucky posters?

	03-03-2003 02:23									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I am not in favour of posting the save, if I want to see the save I shall become a minister

	03-03-2003 05:18									#16
	Tired of ads?

maybe if teh vp was in charge of posting the multi part maps like i did when i was president, not having the save file wouldn't make people feel so out of touch.


example for those who were gone:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=73301
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=72680

	04-03-2003 01:44									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

In fact, I feel rather obligated to do that (at least the new and important portions of the map). I made a suggestion that posting the post-Apollo world might be a good duty for the VP.

I just hadn't expected to be VP when that happened.

Working on it...

	04-03-2003 04:14									#18
	Inflate your Upload Space

MWIA: No I do not, either we give it to all or nobody.

In this case my vote is to nobody.

	04-03-2003 05:51									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

In any event, much of the world map is now posted.

	05-03-2003 02:05									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Shouldn't we have a poll anyway?

I'll go do that then.

	05-03-2003 14:29									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

My own two cents worth, I play and comment on the game, but don't have the time to be a minister. I also do not really desire the save game. I prefer to vote on the information provided by the ministers