02-03-2003 03:05									#1
	Media coverage of the war. Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

This subject hasn't come up yet and deserves its own thread.

It is well known that heavy censorship prevented the public from really seeing what was going on in the first Gulf War. Pictures of the reality of the conflict and accounts of atrocities only really made it out months after the war was over.

e.g. http://dirckhalstead.org/issue0212/pt_intro.html

This time journalists are to be allowed to accompany the troops; but I think that this will probably turn out to be window dressing.

My question is, will reporters in Baghdad be able to get out the truth using new information technology, or does the US have some nefarious weapons that would disrupt all communications equipment?

	02-03-2003 03:37									#2
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That is utter crapola. Atrocities?
The war was right there on television.
The networks showed missles going through bunker doors.

Other than that, no it was it hidden; but what makes you think war should be covered live prime-time?
You'd probably like to drive yor car out near the battlefield with a picnic basket, wouldn't you?

	02-03-2003 03:41									#3
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Yeah, OK - I never saw anything like the stuff I linked to on my television.

	02-03-2003 03:44									#4
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It'd be nice to just "count coup" like some American Indian tribes did, but that isn't going to happen.

	02-03-2003 03:54									#5
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It would be nice if they would call civilian casualties by name, instead of 'collateral damage' or 'human shields'.

	02-03-2003 03:57									#6
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand what makes you think war should be covered live prime-time?

Because the USA is supposed to be a democracy. You can't have the government waging wars and keeping it secret from you.

	02-03-2003 04:01									#7
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does any of the neccesities of caring out a war (ie secrecy) mean nothing to you?

you can't be broadcasting your troopmovements to your enemies, that is a surefire way to lose

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 04:01									#8
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the war won't be a secret, most of the troop movements will hopefully be

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 04:05									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Because the USA is supposed to be a democracy. You can't have the government waging wars and keeping it secret from you.

It's not as though they've gone and invaded Iraq without telling anybody... What's this about keeping the war a secret?

	02-03-2003 04:13									#10
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http://www.islam-online.net/english...article09.shtml

This could make things little clearer.

New information things would rather make censor's job more easier, at least until University educated journalists will be abble to found some ways around it.
(easy for me cryptographer, difficult for new or old "computer uneducated" journalists)

	02-03-2003 04:13									#11
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger It's not as though they've gone and invaded Iraq without telling anybody... What's this about keeping the war a secret?

Deciding what reporters are able to report, and what is and is not released about the war is keeping it secret. What they give you is nothing but propaganda or information that has no relevance to the war, or is very broad and uninformative. No one watching the news will get an idea of what's actually going on, only what the military wants them to think is going on.

Keeping the population ignorant should not be an acceptable military tactic in a democracy.

	02-03-2003 04:15									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Keeping the population ignorant should not be an acceptable military tactic in a democracy.

So, e.g., things like troop positions ought to be reported to the general public?

	02-03-2003 04:17									#13
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In Gulf War I the censorship was far more complete than not allowing the reporting of relevant information that would be of direct military use to Iraq.

The media was spoon-fed the predicgested news from the front by military sources, and reported that.

	02-03-2003 04:20									#14
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger So, e.g., things like troop positions ought to be reported to the general public?

There should be no limits on reporters and journalists. I don't care what they report, just that they're able to.

	02-03-2003 04:42									#15
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never again will a democracy win a war if Osweld has his way

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 04:47									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller never again will a democracy win a war if Osweld has his way Jon Miller

So litle faith in abilities of your army?

	02-03-2003 05:03									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller never again will a democracy win a war if Osweld has his way Jon Miller

1) Reporters would report Iraqi activities just as much as american.

2) The native Iraqi media is going to be reporting american activies anyways.

	02-03-2003 05:07									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld 1) Reporters would report Iraqi activities just as much as american. 2) The native Iraqi media is going to be reporting american activies anyways.

do you not understand the concept of intelligience?

and what makes you think that Iraq (and other nondemocracies) will allow reporters to report anything in their armies

am I right in guessing that you did not come to this site for Civ?

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 05:15									#19
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War zones are not play grounds. People get shot and killed and if a reporter is going to cover it from the front line then he's going to have to follow orders and do as he's told. Other wise you'll have idiot reporters running up to soldiers, turning their flood lamps on "so they can get the shot", and the illuminating fighting positions.

Like it or not reporters are civilians and all civilians are best kept way from the front line.

Last edited by Oerdin on 02-03-2003 at 05:35

	02-03-2003 05:22									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller what makes you think that Iraq (and other nondemocracies) will allow reporters to report anything in their armies

Good to see that the USA is taking example from a "brutal dictatorship that kills it's own people".

I said it should not be done in a democracy, because it is keeping the population ignorant and unable to make a decision. My very point was that censorship is something that is only done by dictators and fascists.

	02-03-2003 05:33									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller never again will a democracy win a war if Osweld has his way

I think that's the idea.

	02-03-2003 05:40									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld My very point was that censorship is something that is only done by dictators and fascists.

Osweld: That is a rather daft thing to say. Censorship happens all the time and in many cases it is a good thing. Do you really want children to see alcohol and cigarette commercials during Saturday morning cartoon? How about porn advertisements on every station during any show?

Those are just two examples of censorship which society has determined to be desirable. Saying all censorship is bad is all well and good but it is also a very simple minded catch phrase.

	02-03-2003 05:43									#23
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The whole game here is what Al Jazeera is going to report to the entire Arab world. They will be with American troops.

	02-03-2003 05:43									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld I said it should not be done in a democracy, because it is keeping the population ignorant and unable to make a decision.

If I'm playing a card game, then I'm sure as hell not going to go showing my cards to everybody. Maybe you do show everybody your cards, in which case you're welcome to join in our weekly poker game any time you want.

	02-03-2003 06:25									#25
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If there was a way so that ONLY the citizens of the democracy in question got full access to the information, then sure, go for it.

But in real life, that can't be done safely without leaking possibly crucial data (troop movements, etc.) to enemies and spies, so it's a very unworkable idea.

	02-03-2003 06:37									#26
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The whole game here is what Al Jazeera is going to report to the entire Arab world. They will be with American troops.

That's right! All we're going to give them is another opportunity to make propoganda out of nothing. The Al Jazeera's of the world wil have a field day and Saddam's state run news (not to meantion the rest of the Arab world's state owned news services) will continue to hide their own guilt.

	02-03-2003 06:51									#27
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All we're going to give them is another opportunity to make propoganda out of nothing.

One of bin-boy's mantras was that the US was too cowardly to fight a land war. Of course, this is news to us, especially considering the ass beating we gave Hussein in '91. Apparently the Arab world didn't see what we saw.

	02-03-2003 07:32									#28
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They saw it the same as we did but it soothes their egos to conveniently forget about it.

BTW since the topic is media coverage of the up coming war, how much propaganda mileage will the typical anti-American groups make of Saddam's new war plans? Apparently he has decided his army can't win a fight so he has moved them out of their bases and is spreading them out among civilian populations. This is a blatant violation of the Geneva conventions requirement that military authorities attempt to protect civilians when ever possible. Saddam is parking SAM batteries right next to hospitals so he can win propaganda points with gullible young leftists.

	02-03-2003 07:42									#29
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They saw it the same as we did but it soothes their egos to conveniently forget about it.

Where did they see it? Certainly not through independent sources like Al Jazeera. Don't think too many Arabs had satellite TV until later in the 90s.