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Comrade Tribune is offline Comrade Tribune
Prince
Vienna, Austria
Nov 1999
time: 06:26
Thumbs up  Old Post 02-03-2003 03:58
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Toronto (Toronto Star) - The United States is heading down a dangerous road that leads away from the United Nations by demanding that Iraq change its president, Prime Minister Jean Chrétien said today.

The concept of "regime change," as stated by the White House, is a dangerous one that doesn't fit with United Nations resolution 1441, Chrétien said as he wrapped up a state visit to Mexico.

And he wondered who would be next on the U.S. list of unpopular leaders and where it would all stop.

"If it is a changing of regime, it's not what is 1441," Chrétien said following reports that Washington wants not only disarmament, but also a new president in Iraq.

"And if you start changing regimes, where do you stop?," a charged-up Chrétien asked during a news conference.

"This is the problem, who is next? Give me the list, the priority list."

The idea of removing Iraqi President Saddam Hussein from office is not part of UN resolution 1441, which requires Iraq to eliminate any biological, chemical and nuclear weapons in its possession.

Chrétien said the disarmament of Iraq is the key issue.

"The official policy is the disarmament of Saddam Hussein," the prime minister said in French.

"I'm surprised to hear now we want to get rid of Saddam Hussein; it's a change of regime. And as far as I am concerned, I believe these are very severe consequences because of change of regime."

Chrétien's strong statement came in response to a question about remarks made in Washington earlier today by White House spokesman Ari Fleischer.

Asked by a reporter whether U.S. President George W. Bush wants both the disarmament of Iraq and exile for Saddam, Fleischer replied ``it's disarmament and regime change."

The U.S. administration has stated since last year that it wants to see a new leader in Baghdad.

But calls for regime change were toned down after Washington decided last fall to seek UN approval before taking military action against Iraq.

"I'm OK, I only have 11 months to go," Chrétien said, referring to his plans to step down. "But how about somebody else? So this is a very dangerous concept."

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:26
  Old Post 02-03-2003 03:58 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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I've got you on ignore, but I'm guessing that this is about Chrétien's speech in Mexico.

Comrade Tribune is offline Comrade Tribune
Prince
Vienna, Austria
Nov 1999
time: 06:26
  Old Post 02-03-2003 04:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Frogger
I've got you on ignore, but I'm guessing that this is about Chrétien's speech in Mexico.


You probably won´t make it to my Buddy list, either, but I guess you guess rightly.

Ozz is offline Ozz
Chieftain
Canada
Mar 2002
time: 05:26
  Old Post 02-03-2003 07:18
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You guys do a good Bush/Chretien imitation.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:26
  Old Post 02-03-2003 09:32
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Cute.

Zylka is offline Zylka
Prince
sure
May 2000
time: 05:26
  Old Post 02-03-2003 10:31
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You know I wonder where this fad LOOK AT US WE ARE CANADA WE DON'T DO ANYTHING USA WANTS NOW attitude is going to get us. Honestly... if we keep it up for another decade, even a country like N Korea could assemble a little flotilla to cross the pacific and murder us. We expect our brothers to help, but at that point - should they?

Comrade Tribune is offline Comrade Tribune
Prince
Vienna, Austria
Nov 1999
time: 06:26
Post  Old Post 02-03-2003 10:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Zylka
Honestly... if we keep it up for another decade, even a country like N Korea could assemble a little flotilla to cross the pacific and murder us.


I´d say this risk is relatively miniscule.

Aren´t you proud your Prime Minister is scoring one for the Honour of your Country, and Decency in general? I would.

Uncle Sparky is offline Uncle Sparky
King
Winnipeg
Jan 1970
time: 23:26
Wink  Old Post 02-03-2003 10:42
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When we didn't heed America's call to arms to help the poor South Viet-namese, the US admin grumbled & farted a bit. Then they pulled out themselves.

When we kept trading with Cuba, the US tried, a couple of times to undermine our policies. This one hasn't changed much.

Canada acts as a conscience when the American Govmt does its Paper Tiger routine.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:26
  Old Post 02-03-2003 10:44 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Aren´t you proud your Prime Minister is scoring one for the Honour of your Country, and Decency in general? I would.

The man's a baffoon, he's only saying what the voices in his head are telling him to say on a certain day.

Look up other quotes that make just as much sense as the above, like his quote about what constitutes proof.

If people resort to quoting Chretien to prove something, you know their argument holds no water.

Comrade Tribune is offline Comrade Tribune
Prince
Vienna, Austria
Nov 1999
time: 06:26
Post  Old Post 02-03-2003 10:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Look up other quotes that make just as much sense as the above, like his quote about what constitutes proof.


I must admit I don´t know much about Canadian politics (except that they are more sane than US politics, but that, in itself, doesn´t say a lot ).

His quote that someone proposing to change the regime of someone else by force is dangerous strikes me as completely reasonable, however.

Zylka is offline Zylka
Prince
sure
May 2000
time: 05:26
  Old Post 02-03-2003 10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher

If people resort to quoting Chretien to prove something, you know their argument holds no water.


Funny you should say that, as a newest thread of like description was in the works!

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:26
  Old Post 02-03-2003 11:43 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Zylka
You know I wonder where this fad LOOK AT US WE ARE CANADA WE DON'T DO ANYTHING USA WANTS NOW attitude is going to get us. Honestly... if we keep it up for another decade, even a country like N Korea could assemble a little flotilla to cross the pacific and murder us. We expect our brothers to help, but at that point - should they?


Zylka, the US has no real leverage over us. Playing nice gets us sh*t all in trade concessions, as we've seen over the last 5 years, and playing the ball how we see it won't hurt us.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:26
  Old Post 02-03-2003 11:45 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Uncle Sparky's on the ball. Vietnam was horrible for relations with the US...but in the end, it hurt the US more than us for us to say no. And we got to stay out of that SE Asian hellhole.

cinch is offline cinch
Chieftain
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Jul 2002
time: 22:26
  Old Post 02-03-2003 12:59
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Sparky:

I disagree with alot of Chretien's policies, and I think he's a bit of a loon, but he is right on the ball here.

Now why can't he apply his little bit of common sense to domesic matters, like, say, the gun registry?

Felch is offline Felch
Prince
Germantown, Maryland
Sep 2001
time: 00:26
  Old Post 02-03-2003 13:12
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If Chretien keeps saying stuff like this, he might be next.

How about it, canucks? Feel like being liberated from French occupation?

Zylka is offline Zylka
Prince
sure
May 2000
time: 05:26
  Old Post 02-03-2003 18:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Frogger


Zylka, the US has no real leverage over us. Playing nice gets us sh*t all in trade concessions, as we've seen over the last 5 years, and playing the ball how we see it won't hurt us.


Ok I agree, especially in that that's the end we discuss

...but I'm starting to really wonder, can't we just do what's morally "right" in a situation like this?

Ozz is offline Ozz
Chieftain
Canada
Mar 2002
time: 05:26
  Old Post 02-03-2003 20:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Felch X
If Chretien keeps saying stuff like this, he might be next.

How about it, canucks? Feel like being liberated from French occupation?


You make his point, eh.

Nice thing about this Iraq mess is the masks are torn
and we all get to see our friends and enemies TRUE
colours.

Seems some of our former "friends" have no problem
with the idea of conquest and conversion by the sword
while paying lip service to freedom for all men.

Comrade Tribune is offline Comrade Tribune
Prince
Vienna, Austria
Nov 1999
time: 06:26
  Old Post 03-03-2003 04:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Zylka
...but I'm starting to really wonder, can't we just do what's morally "right" in a situation like this?


This seems to be exactly what your Prime Minister is trying.

Comrade Tribune is offline Comrade Tribune
Prince
Vienna, Austria
Nov 1999
time: 06:26
Thumbs up  Old Post 03-03-2003 04:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozz
Nice thing about this Iraq mess is the masks are torn
and we all get to see our friends and enemies TRUE
colours.

Seems some of our former "friends" have no problem
with the idea of conquest and conversion by the sword
while paying lip service to freedom for all men.


Agreed; absolutely!

"CANADA! CANADA! CANADA!"

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:26
  Old Post 03-03-2003 10:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozz
Seems some of our former "friends" have no problem
with the idea of conquest and conversion by the sword
while paying lip service to freedom for all men.


That has been the US foreign policy, from Korean War on.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
Emperor
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:26
  Old Post 04-03-2003 02:34
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This is kinda silly. Canada is sending another frigate to replace the one that had the accident.

Canada is NOT sending ground troops, as the 2000 they are sending to Afghan exhausts their ability to project force. Which is fine with me, Im sure they'll do a good job in Afgan.

Canada's position at the UN has not aligned completely with the US, but not with France either. It doesnt surprise me much, given Canada's strat position and the makeup of the current govt.

Of course the distinction between regime change and disarmament is silly, given that Chretien seems to accept the notion of disarmament by force. Once a couple of hundred thousand coalition start marching around IRaq to disarm it, theres no way a regime based completely on force can survive.

List - there is no list of course. For several reasons -
1. Iraq is legally unique - no other country has the same legal obligation to disarm that Iraq does, for reasons going back to the end of Gulf War 1.
2. We do have issues with countires that support terrorism, but since at this point we have made no publci ultimatums on this issue (other than to the Taliban) it is yet to be seen how alleged terrorist supporters will respond, or how the world will view US claims of terror support.
3. IF Iraq goes well, we will have sources of leverage in the region that will make force less important OTOH if things go badly, the whole policy will be dead in the water.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:26
  Old Post 04-03-2003 02:36 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
Of course the distinction between regime change and disarmament is silly, given that Chretien seems to accept the notion of disarmament by force


Does he? I wish somebody could tell me.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
Emperor
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:26
  Old Post 04-03-2003 02:38
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IIUC the current Canadian suggestion at the UN would give the US and UK more explicit sanction for force than IN UK/US/Spain proposal. in exchange for delay to March 28.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:26
  Old Post 04-03-2003 02:43 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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I haven't seen the text. Unfortunately, a quick search also didn't get one for me. Just got a bunch of commentary on it (not particularly helpful). You have a primary source?

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
Emperor
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:26
  Old Post 04-03-2003 02:45
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nah, i dont think its been made public.

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