02-03-2003 10:06									#1
	The Lux Situation Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I think I pinned down the discrepancy that undercut our original planned deal with Lux. Quoting from the Lux contact log:

[19:55] {Dominae> How much gold did you give Vox?
[19:55] {Trip> so far, an undefined sum
[19:56] {Trip> we will give them whatever we have left over after the acquisition of Map Making

Trip used the future tense, leading us to believe that Lux would purchase Map Making and then give whatever was left over to Vox. In reality, Trip had already given or committed to give 150 gold to Vox, with the understanding that Lux could get back whatever of it was needed to purchase Map Making. The difference there is a small and subtle one, but still big enough for Vox to feel like we're taking gold out of their pockets if we sell Lux Map Making instead of just feeling like we're preempting them from getting gold. Trip's mistake may have been a perfectly innocent one, but the diplomatic repercussions it caused are real nonetheless.

	02-03-2003 13:12									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I just had a nice chat with Trip. I got to working on an ultimatum, and then started thinking, "This is silly, I don't even know whether it's necessary to take such a heavy-handed approach." I noticed Trip was in the chatroom, so I decided to talk to him about a couple things so I could get a clearer picture of what angle to take. (I hope my doing so doesn't upset anyone, but the situation has been dragging on too long already.)

I'll post a log in the Lux ambassador's office later, but in the meantime, I need to work on a proposal that I hope will be at least tolerable to everyone.

Oh, and I canceled my last message to Beta before he read it because my discussion with Trip seems to call for a somewhat different approach.

	02-03-2003 13:32									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Axioms for dealing with Lux:

1) Lux is less than entirely trustworthy, but we and Vox have contributed to the current less-than-ideal situation too.

2) However, Lux is a potential asset. If nothing else, if we switch to the 1.21 patch in time, the fact that they are scientific could potentially be good for an extra tech entering the medieval era. Also, they could get us Construction in maybe about 36 turns at no cost and without trading away anything to other teams if we're willing to wait (which may or may not be the case when the time comes). And we might be able to make additional deals getting gold from them in return for letting them keep within shouting distance in the tech race.

3) Keeping Lux in the tech race (at least sort of) costs us nothing unless they trade away tech we've provided them (which is only possible if a civ they've met doesn't already have it).

	02-03-2003 14:17									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'd add a major cost in any dealings with Lux: time- a RL valuable asset that these neotiations needlessly take. What is it that we want? WM, gold, and that LI gets the hell out of here. What Lux gets? staying in the game (for that's worth), and perhaps a few techs?

So, the question is- do we need yet another agreement with Lux? No, i think we need a serious Lux that is willing to make one agreement and stand behind it.

	02-03-2003 15:19									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Which one agreement? The Portia Accord with Vox, which did not include us in any way? Their original draft agreement with us, which was never ratified and which would have seriously undercut our relationship with Vox because things were a little different from how Trip's wording made them look? No final agreement has ever been reached with all three parties as signatories, and therein lies the big mess.

We and Vox could force pretty much whatever we want to on Lux, but I'd rather set things up in a way that provides long-term benefit to all three parties. Then maybe we can get a little benefit even after Lux leaves. And trying to keep the game at least somewhat fun for Trip and company has to count for something too, right?

Nathan

	02-03-2003 16:03									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Okay, here's a specific proposal that I think could work for everyone. It hinges on the fact that techs everyone on Bob already knows will be needed by Lux to avoid falling too ridiculously behind in the tech race. Note that Lux might be able to do quite well for themselves selling techs to Lego if they find Lego first, but I'd rather they do well from it than have one of the civs from Bob find Lego first and reap the rewards of doing so (which is the other likely possibility if we can't swing our galley meeting trick).

1) Lux will receive Writing and Map Making from Vox at the earliest practical dates. At that time, Lux will provide current in-game world maps to both Vox and Gathering Storm. This is to be considered as satisfying Vox's obligation under the Portia Accord to give back any of the 150 gold that is needed for Lux to obtain those technologies, since under this arrangement, none of the gold will be needed for that purpose.

2) Lux gives Vox an option to exchange technologies adding up to at least equal value to Construction for Construction when Lux finishes researching it. If exactly equal value is not possible, Lux will pay for the difference pursuant to (2) below. Lux may request specific technologies, but Vox may veto requests for techs that are not yet widely available.

3) The 2 gpt that Vox is demanding from Lux is to be considered a down payment on a technology sale. The exact technologies involved are to be worked out later, but the price will be 30% of the first-researcher cost to research the technology or technologies in question. After the initial 40 gold, payments may be made on whatever schedule Lux regards as reasonable, and are to be made half to Vox and half to Gathering Storm. In exchange for this guaranteed favorable price, Lux agrees not to purchase techs from anyone other than Vox or Gathering Storm while this provision remains in effect. Gathering Storm and Vox Controli both reserve the right to veto sales of tech not yet widely distributed to other teams. This provision may be canceled at any time after 20 turns after Lux leaves Portia.

4) At some point, Lux will be advanced the technologies needed to enter the medieval era. At that point, Lux Invicta will provide its free technology to Vox Controli (if Vox does not already have it) pursuant to the Portia Accord. Lux may reserve the right to sell or trade its free tech to other civs, or may, if all parties agree to terms, agree to give up that right in exchange for a credit toward tech purchased from Vox and Gathering Storm. Note that unless alternative arrangements are worked out, Lux will be obligated to pay for the techs advanced to it to reach the medieval era on terms pursuant to provision (3). However, this will allow Lux to start researching medieval techs on a 40-turn pace while earning gold to pay for any remaining ancient tech costs.

5) Lux agrees to inform Vox Controli and Gathering Storm if it obtains contact with Legoland before one of us does. At that time, if suitable arrangements regarding a sale of contact cannot be made, Gathering Storm and Vox Controli reserve the right to end tech sales pursuant to provision (3).

6) As a commission for arranging this agreement, Lux agrees to e-mail Gathering Storm a current mini-map immediately.

7) These new provisions in no way invalidate or diminish Lux's obligations to Vox under the Portia Accord, and Lux agrees to be bound by the non-monetary terms (for example, regarding troop movements) stipulated in the earlier draft agreement with Gathering Storm.

	02-03-2003 16:06									#7
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay And trying to keep the game at least somewhat fun for Trip and company has to count for something too, right?

Agreed. That's the prime reason for not having attacked them right after taking over Portia. Sure, the possible benefits are nice, and apart from some diplomatic headaches it doesn't cost us anything, but the whole fun is in having Trip on TTA's continent in exile

More comments when I read the chat, which, at least in principle, was good to have to clear things up.

DeepO

	02-03-2003 16:10									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Nathan, would it be possible to post the last chat log now, so that we can comment on it before you work out a proposal to them?

DeepO

	02-03-2003 16:56									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thanks for reminding me. I'll have it up in a few seconds.

	02-03-2003 17:42									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Oh, and I canceled my last message to Beta before he read it because my discussion with Trip seems to call for a somewhat different approach.

Just to explain the mechanism, you can cancel a PM but Beta will see you have send him one.
However of course he is not able to see the content of it.
I'm not sure if Beta can see the title of the deleted PM, so maybe if he asks about it, you can say you sent the same PM twice.
(just making sure you don't get caught of guard on this.)

	02-03-2003 17:50									#11
	Support Apolyton

Please don't suggest that I tell lies. If he asks, I see nothing wrong with telling him the truth - that after talking with Trip, I changed my mind about what approach was called for in dealing with Lux and canceled my earlier PM in order to replace it.

	02-03-2003 17:56									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Just read the log... hmmm... not very good. The first chat with Trip was far more optimistic. It looks like Trip is seriously considering crossing Vox, and thus us, I hate to think on what he might tell other teams Re: the GS-Vox relation.

How to solve it: we need to make clear to both Vox and Lux that we will get MM for them. If Lux is afraid of getting behind in tech, I suggest we give them some techs, maybe even all techs simply for their free one. As I suspected, Construction isn't going to be worth a lot to them, as someone will finish it a long time before them. I think they misjudged the importance of construction to them...

My suggestion:
1) we give writing asap to Lux, and MM the moment we can (after NDA with GoW ends).
2) Further, we try to get Vox to stop asking for gpt, maybe by offering to take the full 30 gold cost of MM.
3) we try to get a deal with Lux that either us, or Vox (or both) get their free tech, whatever it will be, in exchange to all missing techs. Maybe we need to ask for a little more compensation, e.g. some gold or gpt
4) we say that the price of them staying so close to our borders (they are closer to our borders then to Vox, BTW) is their world map, and screenies as long as we don't have MM yet.
5) we need to get some guarantees on landing of Bob troops, it looks like ND holds grudges against Lux, and could very well deicide to hunt them down. Having Vox station 1 warrior adjacent to their empty city is not that much to ask
6) other then those, I generally agree with the points Nathan made above

DeepO

	02-03-2003 18:29									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Lux has already committed to give Vox their free tech, so I don't see a lot of point in trading for it. I tried to structure the deal above so that Lux won't be expected to give up anything beyond what they agreed to in the Portia Accord without getting something in return. If you don't think I'm being generous enough, we could cut the cost to 25% or even 20% of the first-researcher price, at least until they have a chance to build a few more cities, but it would be nice to get some gold out of them in exchange for the tech they provide.

	02-03-2003 19:27									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Please don't suggest that I tell lies. If he asks, I see nothing wrong with telling him the truth - that after talking with Trip, I changed my mind about what approach was called for in dealing with Lux and canceled my earlier PM in order to replace it.

Nathan, come on, give me a break,

First of all, I was not implying you should be dishonest(well I was , but..).

But having to deal with no less than four different parties,
To try and achieve a successful operation in what is a very delicate balancing act,
is very difficult indeed (for which I give you a lot if not all the credit for),
in which it is sometimes better simply not to tell the whole truth. (In their own interest I might add by the way)

If Beta sees you deleted a message, he might very well get suspicious about it and might draw some wrong conclusions of of it
(thinking we are about to double-cross him).

That's why I said what I said.

To keep everyone at peace and don't go and do anything stupid or rash.
After all we are trying to come up with something that is beneficial for all of us, maybe not short term, but certainly long term.
Hell, it would be far easier just to take out Lux and get it over with.
Not nearly as much fun, but a lot easier nonetheless

	02-03-2003 19:41									#15
	Remove this text

Primary concern of Lux is to get to the middle age, no? And they fear that they are being cheated here, on top of being needed to commit to a game long deal with Vox (which I can udnerstand, as it is the same situation between us and Vox).

So, how can we solve this: get them the tech they need, it wouldn't be worth much to us anyway. But in exchange we could get a few commitments from them, which don't cost them anything, or don't further delay their evolution. E.g. all techs we provide are not to be traded to others. Further, if they were to get in contact with Lego before us, we get that contact the next turn for free.

I'm simply trying to get the relation between Lux and Vox to improve, as we are being forced in a mediator role here, which is not good.

One of the problems is also the construction deal, but most likely we are able to get it before Lux discovers it, as I already said before. We can't help it that Lux didn't analyse the situation more carefully, so they should be happy with us when we try to solve their problem. You already hinted at this in the log, but maybe a reminder would be best.

Okay, a proposal: could we get all parties in a chat, where all members of the 3 teams are welcome, but only a few speak? This is not going to get soved easily by PMs, and we need to act fast here. Before that, we should make sure what our minimum and maximum demands are, but I think that apart from a few minor differences, the GS team has made up his mind... we simply need to make sure the three parties are on the same wavelength.

What about tonight? I need to depart now, but I can make it around 9h30 PM GMT to about 2 AM, if others can join, we should be able to get this over today. Waiting for tomorrow makes things more difficult, as not everyone can spend his afternoon in a chatroom.

DeepO

	02-03-2003 22:50									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That late tonight won't be possible for me, but i'm not that up to date witht he Luxian-Voxian crisis details anyway, and won't have much to contribute. Please, solve this issue quickly.

One important thing: perhaps we can tell Trip the nad news about the rumors of Lux taking refuge on or isle, and ask him what to tell GoW? Also mention GoW's hints of making a trade with Lux, and how they want to view their relations. I'd hate to see our relations with GoW getting sour because we need to act as LI's spokesmen and cover the fact they are here. Especially after facing HotE's blunt inqueries.

	03-03-2003 02:28									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

Boy, am I confused.

Anybody remember how to untie a Gordian Knot?

	03-03-2003 02:44									#18
	Inflate your Upload Space

Theseus, maybe it's time for another nick-change... Alexander the Great would suit you

I'm still for a chat with both Lux and Vox, but it looks like we won't be able to pull it off today. Tomorrow? We really need to come together with the three partners, or we stay confused...

DeepO

	03-03-2003 03:45									#19
	Get a bigger avatar today!

DeepO, a chat involving other teams won't work until we figure out what we want. There's still too much room between your idea and mine.

I really need to finish the CivFanatics GOTM before the deadline, though (in the modern era coasting - I hope - to a space race victory). So I don't really have time to hammer things out right now.