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Zylka
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I'm only really familiar with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John... Would the experts please inform me of the bible's full description of intoxication?
Referenced passages would help. Thanks!
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Zylka
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This is for debate... the most info can be drawn from such
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:26
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Let's start with this biblical revisionism:
quote:
In this paper I will share different verses that make it crystal clear that the Lord is not pleased with those who choose to defile their bodies and minds by the use of alcohol and drugs. |
According to Jesus, who was accused of defiling his body for breaking bread with heathens, it is not what you put in your mouth that defiles you, but what comes out of your mouth, this defiles you. He's talking about thoughts and words...Next, consider that Jesus, according to the story about the wedding at Cana, supplied an already intoxicated crowd, with another batch of wine. Now, if the fundies claim this was a symbolic tale designed to convey a message about reform, quite possibly a valid interpretation, then there goes one of Jesus' miracles, which leads us to question the validity of other miracles which may have also been symbolic tales.
1) There is a big difference between being a drunkard and drinking booze just as there is a big difference between a wino and having wine with dinner. If you read the context in which wine is condemned, it isn't moderation, but drunkenness that is being condemned. The author goes on to cite a number of verses that highlight the hazards of excess alcohol use, but when Noah got drunk after the Flood, who did God curse? Noah or Ham? Ham was sober, Noah wasn't. Hmm...
Check out this rationalisation of Jesus turning water to wine:
quote:
Do you really believe that what Jesus miraculously created in any way resembled the stuff that you can buy in a 40-ounce at the liquor store? What Jesus created for the wedding referred to in John 2:1-11 is a drink similar to grape juice. I'm sure that no one at the wedding had a hangover the next day after drinking what Jesus had created. |
So, it was only grape juice? ROTFLMAO! The story refutes this, it says a man came to Jesus after being given the wine produced by Jesus, and the man commented that it was unusual for the host (? the "host" at a Jewish wedding was the bridegroom!!!) to hold on to the better batch of wine till last. The host would put out the best wine first when the party begins so that once people started getting drunk, they wouldn't notice the decline in quality as the inferior wine was later offered. According to the story, the man even said the host usually waits till the guests are "well-drunk" before bringing out the inferior wine. "Well-drunk", according to Strong's Concordance, means bombed, intoxicated, drunk...
Hmm...the author only provides verses dealing with wine, nothing about the demon weed he claims God hates for us to use.
Edit: Boris, this author is a joke, I've read other commenataries from fundies who at least offer reasonable explanations for what Jesus did at Cana. This author doesn't even try to support the accusations about other drugs, he apparently considers alcohol intoxication to include any drug he doesn't like. I've read other fundies who at least try to support their claim that the Bible condemns drug use, albeit with about as much success as this person.
Last edited by Berzerker on 02-03-2003 at 23:58
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:26
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quote:
Would the experts please inform me of the bible's full description of intoxication? |
I'm no expert, but Berzerker left a few things out.
Regarding cleanness/uncleaness, Jesus referred to the Jewish practice of avoiding Kosher food, not to intoxication. The Pharisees were more concerned with adherance to dietary restrictions, than with proper moral conduct, so Jesus rebuked them by saying that what makes a man unclean is what comes out of his mouth, not what goes in.
Intoxication:
Romans 13:13
Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.
1 Cor 6:9-10
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders,
nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:18
Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.
So why is drunkeness sinful conduct? Paul expresses his concern that those who get drunk lose self-control, and may commit other sins because they cannot restrain themselves.
Not everyone has the same tolerance of alcohol, so a set standard will not work. Some may get drunk on what would hardly touch a heavy drinker.
1 Cor: 9-13
Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.
Applying this to drinking: some Christians are strong. They understand that light drinking, before the point of drunkeness is not sinful. Some Christians are weak in that they cannot drink without become attached to the wine, alcoholics, etc. The strong brother should always accede to the weak brother as Paul illustrates above.
It is better that you do not drink in front of those who would have problems. For if they see you drink a little bit of wine, they may go off, and find themselves unable to stop.
I hope this helps, Zylka.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:26
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Obiwan - quote:
I'm no expert, but Berzerker left a few things out.
Regarding cleanness/uncleaness, Jesus referred to the Jewish practice of avoiding Kosher food, not to intoxication. |
Jews avoid kosher food?  My opening sentence mentioned that Jesus was accused of defiling the bodily temple of God - the human body - by breaking bread with heathens, i.e., violating dietary or food preparation laws. But Jesus' response to the accusation applies to everything that man ingests, including intoxicants. Since it is only what comes from the mouth/heart that defiles the body, and not what one ingests, then ingesting booze does not, by itself, defile anything.
quote:
So why is drunkeness sinful conduct? Paul expresses his concern that those who get drunk lose self-control, and may commit other sins because they cannot restrain themselves. |
So, would Paul condemn Jesus for giving a bunch of wine to an already drunk crowd of party-goers? The problem with that argument is that drinking booze is not the sin, but getting drunk and making a fool of oneself (so to speak) that is the sin. There are plenty of people who do that without any alcohol.
quote:
Not everyone has the same tolerance of alcohol, so a set standard will not work. Some may get drunk on what would hardly touch a heavy drinker. |
The set standard is the behavior one engages in when drunk. If I got drunk and tore off my clothes and streaked down the street, I may not be acting like a good Christian. If you got drunk and went to sleep, I doubt you'd be refused entry to Heaven.
quote:
1 Cor: 9-13
Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall. |
Yikes, the implications of that would create an all-encompassing nanny state if Christians were consistent about legislating their religion.
quote:
Applying this to drinking: some Christians are strong. They understand that light drinking, before the point of drunkeness is not sinful. Some Christians are weak in that they cannot drink without become attached to the wine, alcoholics, etc. The strong brother should always accede to the weak brother as Paul illustrates above. It is better that you do not drink in front of those who would have problems. For if they see you drink a little bit of wine, they may go off, and find themselves unable to stop. |
Then we should never eat in front of others lest they pig out and get obese. I understand the rationale there, but personal responsibility does matter and removing it makes life incredibly boring. Of course, I suspect Paul was a very boring person...
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Static Universe
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quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
Jesus rebuked them by saying that what makes a man unclean is what comes out of his mouth, not what goes in.
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The point is: you can drink all you want, but if you puke it's a sin.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:26
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Berzerker:
quote:
Jews avoid kosher food? |
Oi. You knew what I meant.
quote:
But Jesus' response to the accusation applies to everything that man ingests, including intoxicants. Since it is only what comes from the mouth/heart that defiles the body, and not what one ingests, then ingesting booze does not, by itself, defile anything. |
Correct. Booze is not intrinsically evil. I like your illustration with drinking and falling asleep. However, you can't count on falling asleep all the time when you get drunk.
quote:
Christians were consistent about legislating their religion. |
Nope. This is more for behavior between brothers and sisters in Christ. Unless Christians legislated belief, then these exhortations could not be enforced.
quote:
Of course, I suspect Paul was a very boring person... |
The Romans and Pharisee's didn't think so.
quote:
So, would Paul condemn Jesus for giving a bunch of wine to an already drunk crowd of party-goers? |
Yes, he would. The question becomes did Jesus get people drunk at Cana?
John 2:9-10
They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."
At first glance, this passage seems to say so. The partygoers have been drinking, as they have finished the wine provided. If Jesus fulfilled the usual example, he would have supplied cheap wine that made people drunk.
But Jesus chose not to follow the usual example. Your question above assumes that Jesus turned the water into wine. If you accept this, what does this mean? Jesus used this opportunity to help show his mother, and the partygoers his divinity. The transformation of the wine would be the first miracle performed by Jesus.
If one assumes Jesus is Lord, could he not make 'good' wine that people could not get drunk upon? Clearly the bridegroom felt the wine of Jesus was the best wine of the evening.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:26
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quote:
1 Timothy 5:23 - "Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses."
Proverbs 31:6,7 - "Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish; let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more. " |
Giant Squid:
1 Timothy 5:23.
No contradiction. Note the qualifier Paul employs, 'little wine.'
Timothy had stomach problems, as Paul indicates in your quote. At that time water could not be purified to the same extent it is today. Therefore water-born parasites could cause the symptoms attributed to Timothy.
Proverbs 31:1-7
In context:
The sayings of King Lemuel-an oracle [1] his mother taught him:
"O my son, O son of my womb,
O son of my vows, [2]
do not spend your strength on women,
your vigor on those who ruin kings.
"It is not for kings, O Lemuel-
not for kings to drink wine,
not for rulers to crave beer,
lest they drink and forget what the law decrees,
and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.
Give beer to those who are perishing,
wine to those who are in anguish;
let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.
The instructions are addressed to King Lemuel, exhorting him to forsake wine, and to leave drinking to the masses. Not contradictory.
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02-03-2003 21:50
Even Fez is more convincing ! 
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