02-03-2003 22:04									#1
	Opinion: Do we stick with 1.29? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

It seems Thud accidentally upgraded the game to 1.29 during the latest turnplay. What should we do?

I'd say stick with it. The game is close enough to the end that the more profitable tech sales we'll get won't really matter. And I can get this space-gobbling dual install off my HD, too.

	02-03-2003 22:36									#2
	Support Apolyton

Oops. I went through all sorts of trouble just to get 1.21. It crashed at one point, I must've started using my newer install. How foolish of me.

	02-03-2003 22:44									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

hi ,

we should stay with 1.29 F

have a nice day

	02-03-2003 22:45									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

This is an interesting situation...
Technically, this would be cheating, since we've bought techs for cheaper prices in 1.21, and now that we're selling, we're upgrading to 1.29, where techs cost more.
This is what I've said to Thud on the chat room, but since then I've had another thought about this, and I realized that none of the AI civs can afford to pay enough money for our techs to make the switch to 1.29f noticeable, techcost-wise, so it would really make no difference.
Plus, we're so close to the end of the game and another penny or two won't make any difference, so arguing that upgrading to 1.29f is cheating seems kinda stubborn and unrealistic to me. Therefore, I vote that we stick with 1.29f.

	02-03-2003 22:50									#5
	Remove this text

As I just said in the chat: if we switch to 1.29, anyone attending the final chat (e.g. MarkG, JoeBob51, etc.) can play the final turn with us and witness the end of this demogame. But if we use 1.21, 1.29 users could get different results. We don't want a popcorn UN...

	03-03-2003 00:09									#6
	Got spare money?

How long was the chat I was there at 18:00 GMT and there was noone?

	03-03-2003 00:59									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

There wasn't an actual turnchat, just a bunch of people (Thud, Kloreep, Panag and myself, IIRC) talking about the save.

	03-03-2003 19:07									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Nimitz How long was the chat I was there at 18:00 GMT and there was noone?

hi ,

Thud had not enough orders or people , so he pulled the plug , .....

have a nice day

	03-03-2003 19:19									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

I don't care which version we use, take the easiest way to solve this problem, don't make the problem bigger than it was by going back in time. BTW: going back in time is also cheating because we know then already "what the future will bring": we are now in the future of our previous chat.

Aidun

	03-03-2003 19:59									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Aidun ...................... BTW: going back in time is also cheating because we know then already "what the future will bring": we are now in the future of our previous chat. Aidun

Well, this is an interesting discussion... Going back in time and repeat exactly the same orders, rushes and moves wouldn't be cheating, IMHO. Would be like see again the same film (a DVD, for instance)... in an older obsolete device.
Just my 2 cents.

	03-03-2003 20:07									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

hi ,

well we should have upgraded a long time ago , .....

fixes and a patch can not be regarded as cheating , ....

have a nice day just some two little dollar cents

	03-03-2003 20:33									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Legally we have NO choice but to go back and play at 1.21. This vote cannot change that.
Aggie

	03-03-2003 20:58									#13
	Tired of ads?

I completely agree with Aggie. Thud must redo the turns played, taking care to make EXACTLY the same moves (this will maintain the ramdom seed without changes, IIRC)

Edit:

No, wait... with different patches, the results will be different.

	03-03-2003 20:59									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

How many turns would have to be replayed?

	03-03-2003 21:00									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

3 turns. In fact, end a turn and play 2 others.

	03-03-2003 21:21									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Aro Well, this is an interesting discussion... Going back in time and repeat exactly the same orders, rushes and moves wouldn't be cheating, IMHO. Would be like see again the same film (a DVD, for instance)... in an older obsolete device. Just my 2 cents.

You are completely right Aro, what I meant is that IF we go back in time and redo the turns, we may only do EXACTLY the same. Even if we get a disadvantage of that, we have to accept that.

Aidun

	03-03-2003 21:51									#17
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Aro ................... Edit: No, wait... with different patches, the results will be different.

We have to expect this, too. It's better in this way.

	04-03-2003 02:05									#18
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Aggie Legally we have NO choice but to go back and play at 1.21. This vote cannot change that. Aggie

How so? Patch versions aren't mentioned in the CoL, and there is no senate bill on it.

	04-03-2003 02:21									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

hi ,

we should stick with it , a good point is the fact that a lot of people shall want to take over when its ended , .....

not to mention of all the fixes , .....

have a nice day

	04-03-2003 02:22									#20
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Additions v1.29f:




Editor: Added a new flag to terrain types to be able to set whether or not cities can be built on a particular terrain type.
Editor: Implemented city placement. You can now add, delete and edit cities. When a city is placed, a unique name is automatically generated for it. City art will match the era of the player it is assigned to.
Editor: Implemented mouse cursor feedback. If the tile under the mouse is invalid for the current brush type, the invalid mouse cursor is displayed.
Saved last scenario loaded in .INI file.
Editor: Updated Tile property sheet to work with starting locations.
Editor: Added 'Reassign' tile option to context menu.
Added Fortify All and Wake All right-click menu commands.
Updated units to allow them to have the names which are set in the editor.
Editor: Added unit-placement option.
Editor: Added ability to delete placed units.
Editor: Added unit properties.
Added additional Hotkeys to Civilopedia entries.
Added 'Always Renegotiate Deals' prefs which forces a renegotiation of every non-peace treaty deal every 20 turns.
Editor: Added ability to toggle colony-placement by terrain type.
Editor: Added a colony overlay so that colonies can be added to (and deleted from) the map.
Editor: Added colonies to tile properties.
Editor: Enabled Add/Delete buttons for Civilizations. Note that there is a maximum of 32 Civilizations.
Editor: Added Accelerated Production to Game Settings list on Scenario Properties. It defaults to OFF.
Editor: Added various map text options to View menu. City Names, Number of Units, and Tile Owners can be toggled on or off as desired. Note that City Names and Number of Units both default to ON while Tile Owners defaults to OFF.
Editor: Added a minimap.
Editor: Added some randomness to map editing by setting the seed to something other than 0 (does not change existing maps).
Added Cancel to Go To City popup.
Added a preference for disabling the pop. limit warning.
Added Accelerated Production rule to player setup screen. It defaults to OFF.
Added an error message for missing unit files (to help debug mods that have added/renamed units).
Editor: Added zoom in/out functionality.
Editor: Added zoom level to status bar.
Editor: Added zoom quality controls.
Editor: Added zoom in/out to context menu.
Added an error message for missing entries in pediaicons.txt though this is currently only used for loading tech icons.
Editor: Enabled Add/Delete buttons for Citizens.
Editor: Enabled Add/Delete buttons for Civilization Advances.
Editor: Enabled Add/Delete buttons for Improvements and Wonders. Note that there is a limit of 256 Improvements and Wonders. Also, changing Improvements and Wonders will have NO effect on the city view screen. The city view screen will behave as though the improvements have not been modified
Editor: Updated unit and resource icon loading to handle sprite pages of any width (any height was already handled).
Editor: Added display of city territory boundaries with a View option to toggle this display.
Editor: Added additional speed optimizations to release build.
Editor: Added team color to units, starting locations, text, and territory boundaries. Note that, because of the number of possible combinations of players/civs placed on the map and the number of team colors available, the same team colors can and will be used for different players.
Editor: Added hotkey to toggle minimap (M).
Editor: Added ability to click and drag on minimap.
Editor: Added support for scroll keys and mouse wheel to minimap.
Editor: Added hotkey to switch focus between minimap and main window (Tab).
Editor: Added code to disable zoom on systems that don't support it.
Editor: Added options to redistribute starting locations, natural resources, goody huts, and bonus grassland tiles to the Map menu.
Editor: Added some restrictions to randomly-generated starting locations (can't be placed on goody huts, barbarian camps, cities, units, or colonies).
Editor: Added territory display to minimap.
Added some restrictions to randomly-generated starting location (can't appear on goody huts, barbarian camps, units, cities, or colonies -- this only affects scenarios).
Added error messages for the following items when entries are missing from pediaicons.txt: era splash, wonder splash, victory portraits, building icons. Note that error messages will only be displayed when attempting to load the missing file and this doesn't necessarily occur at game startup.
Updated scenario loading with support for auto-generated city names. City names will always be generated in the same order unless the scenario is modified (so, if a city is assigned 'Rome,' it will always be assigned 'Rome,' when playing that scenario).
Editor: Added option to context menu to center on the clicked tile.
Editor: Added 'auto' check box to city properties that will cause the city's name to be automatically generated when the scenario is loaded into the game. It defaults to ON if the active player cannot access city names (i.e., they are a player with no civ assigned) and OFF if the active player can access city names.
Added the ability to rename units if they produce a great leader during combat. The player is given a popup to name this unit.
Added error handling for scenarios with an incorrect number of difficulty levels, eras, espionage missions, experience levels, worker jobs, terrain types, and world sizes. The player will be given a message and the game will exit.
Editor: Added various interface enhancements.
Editor: Added ability to import BIC data from other BIC files.
Added an '*' next to experience level name for units that have produced a leader.

Changes v1.29f:


Editor: Changed the rename unit confirmation message to only be displayed if there is no corresponding folder and .INI file for the new name.
Disabled tutorial mode when using custom rules (due to a number of problems/bugs).
Sped-up world builder for generated maps.
Circular leader heads used in civ3 are no longer hardcoded.
Fixed crash that occurs on the city screen when a city is connected to more than 8 resources.
Editor: Changed context menu to support cascading popup submenus for the many delete options.
Editor: Renamed 'Restart Players' game setting to 'Respawn AI Players'.
Editor: Renamed references to 'Terraforming Improvements' to 'Worker Jobs'.
Editor: Changed maximum allowable value for Appearance Ratio for resources to 900.
Editor: Renamed 'Infinite Range' unit ability to 'Infinite Bombard Range'.
Removed hard-coding of small luxury icons for city screen. This should remove all art restrictions for adding Resources in the editor.
Renamed 'Restarting Players' game rule to 'Respawn AI Players' on the player setup screen.
Removed scenario popup if there is no title AND no description AND the rules have not been modified in the scenario.
Removed compression from auto saves.
Moved preferences popup so that it no longer extends off the bottom of the screen.
Changed error message for incompatible scenario versions to make sense for both older and newer versions.
Updated code for loading citizen icons to synchronize it with the number of citizen types in the BIC file. As such, citizen icons are no longer hard-coded.
Moved tech icons into pediaicons.txt.
Synchronized improvement icon loading.
Editor: Removed icon from Civilization Advances page as they are now stored in pediaicons.txt.
Editor: Updated BIC file version to 3.14.
Editor: Optimized rules property sheet for speed.
Editor: Updated improvements page to allow only 1 center of empire.
Editor: Optimized citizen and government pages slightly.
Editor: Set ocean as the default terrain type.
Editor: Renamed all references to 'Goods' to 'Resources'.
Editor: Changed city placement so that roads/railroads are not automatically added to the tile but neither are they removed and they can be manually placed underneath cities.
Editor: Restricted road placement to tiles where the terrain type has a road bonus.
Made a slight change to placement of goody huts and bonus grassland tiles. This will have no effect on existing maps and saved games but it will cause new seed-generated maps to be generated differently than they were prior to this version (i.e., using the same seed before this version and after this version will produce maps with a different distribution of goody huts and bonus grassland tiles).
Removed the water restriction from terraforming so that all terraform types are now based on the terrain type (except for forts).
Changed city code so that a road/railroad is not placed under a city if a road/railroad is not allowed on the terrain type the city is built upon.
Editor: Changed territory calculations. This will cause existing scenarios to have slightly different territory display in the editor only. The territory display in the game for existing scenarios will be unaffected.
Changed Military Advisor to evaluate armies based on relative strengths of units as opposed to number of units.
Changed air units to ignore movement costs of terrain types (this will only have an effect on air units without the Immobile ability).

Fixes v1.29f:


Fixed typo in Tactical Nuclear Missile entry.
Editor: Fixed bug with sprite transparency in Windows NT, 2000, and XP.
Editor: Fixed bug with canceling out of the Player Properties.
Editor: Fixed some bugs with players.
Editor: Fixed some bugs with the active player.
Editor: Fixed occasional crash caused by Restore Default Rules and Clear Rules options.
Editor: Fixed bug with undo and cancel on Tile and Scenario property sheets.
Fixed crash with city names and blank city name problem.
Fixed bug in Foreign Advisor with the display of some leader heads.
Fixed bug which forced the main interface to always appear when exiting the citywin.
Fixed diplowin loophole involving renegotiating peace which allowed 0 turn wars.
Fixed bug involving the trade network and destroyed cities.
Corrected Nuclear Plant output on Plants Game Concept Civilopedia entry.
Noted that a Marketplace is required to build a Bank in its Civilopedia entry.
Noted that a Factory is required to build a Manufacturing Plant in its Civilopedia entry.
Noted that a Factory is required to build a Coal Plant in its Civilopedia entry.
Noted that a Factory is required to build a Solar Plant in its Civilopedia entry.
Noted that a Factory is required to build a Hydro Plant in its Civilopedia entry.
Noted that a Factory is required to build a Nuclear Plant in its Civilopedia entry.
Noted that a University is required to build a Research Lab in its Civilopedia entry.
Added Mech. Infantry to the list of units that can be drafted in the game concept Civilopedia entry.
Corrected the Communism draft rate listed in the Draft Civilopedia entry to 2.
Corrected Disease Civilopedia chapter to reflect workers are immune to disease.
Corrected Resistance Civilopedia chapter to reflect resisting citizens do not consume food.
Editor: Fixed bug with help on scenario properties.
Editor: Fixed bugs with tab orders on several property pages.
Editor: Fixed occasional crash.
Editor: Fixed bugs with cancel button on scenario and tile property sheets.
Editor: Fixed bug that caused all language resources to be included in English-language builds.
Editor: Fixed bug that caused number of players to not load correctly.
Editor: Fixed a bug with tile owners displayed on the status bar.
Fixed bug with loading resource icons.
Fixed bug with improvement icons.
Fixed bug that caused bubble text on the science advisor screen to be displayed in the wrong location if the screen resolution is larger than 1024x768.
Fixed bug with .INI option 'Quickstart=1'.
Fixed a bug that caused old saves to appear to have modified rules.
Fixed some text bugs in labels, civilopedia, and script.
Lined up hot key text in Civilopedia.
Fixed a gender problem with the declaration of war popup.
Sped up game by removing some unit draws for non-visible units.
Fixed bug that prevented air units from being displayed over water tiles.
Editor: Fixed minor bug with status bar.
Fixed minor territory bug.
Editor: Fixed small bug with message-passing system.
Fixed several bugs with interface that occurred when toggling button positions and hiding the interface.
Fixed crash that occurred when there are not enough starting locations to play a game. Now, an error message is displayed and the game exits.
Fixed bug with scenario loading.
Restricted roads/railroads from being built on terrain that has no road bonus.
Fixed minimap to display correctly when the world's aspect ratio is something other than 1:1.
Editor: Fixed some bugs with the redistribution options.
Editor: Fixed bug that caused the minimap to not be updated after loading.
Editor: Fixed bug that caused Future Era and Any Difficulty to not be loaded into the editor correctly.
Fixed a typo in the science advice text.
Fixed bug that allowed team color discs to use civ colors for hidden nationality units.
Fixed bug with citizens not being initially assigned to work in scenarios.
Fixed bug which prevented SAM Battery from working.
Fixed bug that caused no starting locations to be generated on some maps.
Fixed bug that caused worker automation (and goto city) to not work properly if there were no water tiles on the map.
Editor: Fixed a bug where Scenario Properties were not always cleared when loading a new scenario.
Fixed crash that occurred if there were more players than playable civs.
Fixed bug that caused civs to be assigned incorrect colors.
Fixed bug which caused one's own units to attack one's workers.
Fixed unit stack corruption bug caused by the nuke draw functions.
Fixed crash caused by too many units requiring the same tech prerequisite.
Fixed bad icons displayed on science advisor screen.

	04-03-2003 02:28									#21
	Put an end to popups!

Your idea is the best, Aro. And let's NOT slow down the game, making things all the worse, with a tedious amendmennt on this! If we must, let's do it AFTER the game is over and we have a bit more time, hmm?

We're so close, let's not delay now.

	04-03-2003 04:41									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Finish it!!!!!

	04-03-2003 05:25									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

1.21f!!!!

























PTW, that is.

	04-03-2003 15:40									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Go back to the 1.21f version, if not we will never know if we where able to win or not. (1.29f will not behave in the same way as 1.21f).

	04-03-2003 19:15									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by theViking Go back to the 1.21f version, if not we will never know if we where able to win or not. (1.29f will not behave in the same way as 1.21f).

hi ,

well the way the cards are on the table now , its very clear who is the strongest and largest nation , .......

have a nice day

	04-03-2003 19:56									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Let's switch to PTW and play against 23 AI civs.

	04-03-2003 19:58									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by panag Additions v1.29f: Editor: Added a new flag to terrain types to be able to {This post has been edited to fit this screen} Fixed bad icons displayed on science advisor screen.

That is the longest post I have ever seen panag make.

	05-03-2003 00:17									#28
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Changing to 1.29 could deny people the right to play and additionally it changes the game. I have to say that I don't see the reason. Thud can replay the turns and get to the same point. Nothing would be changed. Come on, I for one feel that this would diminish our win to a point to make it insignificant.Also as I said earlier it is ILLEGAL to cahnge and here is why. From the constitution "10 All citizens shall have access to the save". Citizens who do not have 1.29 will be disenfrancised. Thus any play will result in breaking the law. I do not understand why our president can't just replay the turns at his conviencie(it wouldn't take long).
Aggie

Last edited by Aggie on 05-03-2003 at 00:26

	05-03-2003 01:00									#29
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Aggie Legally we have NO choice but to go back and play at 1.21. This vote cannot change that. Aggie

(The following is not the opinion of the court)

I don't see any reason why the Senate can't legally decide to upgrade and keep playing at the current patch.

(added) I personally wouldn't find such a law unconstitutional but I would be intregued to see the arguments for and against it. Maybe I'll change my mind.

--Togas

	05-03-2003 01:32									#30
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

If we're going to go at it legally... the English, French, German, Japanese, Italian and Spanish versions of the game have been patched to 1.29f (Italian is listed as 1.21f in the Poly patch center, but if you search for news articles on the Italian version of Civ3, you'll see 1.29f is out, albeit with a bug). Unless there are other versions besides these, 1.29f is accessible by everyone.