02-03-2003 22:11									#1
	Changing tile graphics Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: [18:47] BigFurryMonster: In Civ/PTW, you can make your own graphics. No matter the graphics set the game uses, certain tiles at the border of your World Map are partially shown. So - if you add little coloured dots (or whatever code) that you'll be able to decipher to the edges of your graphics, you can always see one tile further than normal. [18:47] BigFurryMonster: ? [18:54] BigFurryMonster: Would be kinda cheating though [19:09] Shiber: i don't think so [19:09] Shiber: IMHO it's a brilliant idea, and nowhere near cheating [19:11] Shiber: if i were to do it, i'd redo the tile graphics so that each different tile would have a distinguishable, solid color [19:13] BigFurryMonster: Indeed. [19:13] BigFurryMonster: Please discuss on the Forum. I'm sure others will think of it as cheating [19:14] * vondrack|bbs is now known as vondrack [19:14] vondrack: AFAIK, Trip is using something like this [19:14] vondrack: and IMHO, this is not really cheating [19:15] vondrack: different tilesets are most probably ok [19:15] Shiber: i'll open a discussion thread

So, what do you think?
I'd expect that some would call this cheating, but I think not. We're certainly not breaking any rules - we're not manipulating the save in any way, and we are using information that is already available to us - the fading ends of the FoW, and simply enhancing its clarity. Plus, this won't reveal information about any units, bonus tiles or huts/encampments that are in the tiles beyond the FoW.

	02-03-2003 23:24									#2
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I'm against this. While I think using Sn00py's, Warpstorm's, etc. custom terrain sets that were designed just to look nice is okay in my view (if a little questionable), I see using a tile set designed explicitly for furthering your own civ's cause as cheating.

If Firaxis still hadn't put rules directly in the save files when PTW came out, you would object to someone editing their original rule set to give themselves, say, a super-UU, wouldn't you? And we all agree the load-from-a-game-in-progress exploit to see another civ's start is cheating. Frankly, I don't see how this would be all that much different.

	02-03-2003 23:26									#3
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I think I can already tell what every tile is on the edge of the FoW with the default graphics. So if it helps others, then I guess it wouldn't be considered cheating.

	02-03-2003 23:26									#4
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lets ask the firaxis team

if they decide the boundary FOW is supposed to be noticeable, we know our answer

after all, they ARE the creators, and should decide how this game is MEANT to be played

	02-03-2003 23:43									#5
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For base terrain I would think it's ok, but it takes the fun out of it. You can already tell as is. Any change to make resources or luxuries visible would be cheating though, as for the most part they aren't visible in the basic terrain set.

	02-03-2003 23:55									#6
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I agree with Aeson. We can already see the next tile, the only actual difference between using the standard tileset and using a modified one is that we just have to strain our eyes less.
As long as we're not revealing any information that is not already available to us (e.g. by changing the bonus tiles' graphics so that they'd be visible from beyond the FoW), we're doing nothing wrong.

Last edited by Shiber on 03-03-2003 at 00:09

	03-03-2003 01:14									#7
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Some people claim that they can see cows* on certain tiles with the current graphics set, but I've never managed to do that.

* Some people have claimed to see pink elephants, too. But that is an entirely different story...

	03-03-2003 01:56									#8
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No, leave things as they are. Custom graphic sets are one thing. Adding dots to tiles to see what they are is cheating.

	03-03-2003 02:13									#9
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I suppose that if enough people think it's cheating, then we should do this in order not to upset a large portion of our members.
Just one question though: would you consider playing with the map editor to see what tiles beyond the FoW would produce what we see, thus determining what is beyond the FoW, as cheating? How about taking a screenshot of the edges of the FoW and then enlarging them to determine the tile beyond the FoW - is this cheating?

	03-03-2003 02:27									#10
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Doing anything unnatural to the game for the express purpose of seeing more is cheating.

Something like zooming into the FoW tiles would not be cheating, since you're not uncovering any information using the game itself, and the information is available to whoever can spot it anyways.

That's my view, anyways.

If there's one thing I want to avoid at any and all costs, it's cheating. I used to always replay my turns in old strategy games to make sure I won, but cheating is less fun than losing units, etc. so I guess I've swung the exact opposite direction.

	03-03-2003 10:32									#11
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I haven't tried it yet, but if we used the color blind help, wouldn't that have the same effect, or does it just turn everything black and white?

	03-03-2003 10:35									#12
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IIRC, Colorblind simply adds text to help identify the allegiance of cities and unit stacks; I don't think it does anything to the actual terrain graphics.

	03-03-2003 10:35									#13
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All it does is adds textual tags to things.

D'oh, Kloreep beat me to it by 5 seconds...

	04-03-2003 02:35									#14
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Simply getting a better view or FoW base tiles is not cheating IHMO. Using tile sets to find huts/barbs/resources is.

	04-03-2003 07:45									#15
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Shiber, this is OT, but I am wondering how secure the image links on Apolyton are. Any opinions?

	04-03-2003 11:58									#16
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Shiber, this is OT, but I am wondering how secure the image links on Apolyton are. Any opinions?

AFAIK, it is as follows: anybody knowing the URL can view them, but he has to link to them from a Poly page (a post, a draft post, a PM...). Outsiders cannot link to them or access them from a non-Poly page. Basically, we would need a traitor in our team to reveal the URL first... and with a traitor like that, no security measures would help anyway...

	04-03-2003 15:18									#17
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I concur.
As long as we are traitors-free, and don't use obvious filenames for the images, we should be fine.