03-03-2003 01:41									#1
	Political Correctness getting in the way of Historical Accuracy Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

How ridiculous of Paradox Entertainment to not include the Third Reich Swastika flag in Hearts of Iron - again, political correctness triumphs over common sense.

What's next? Ridding games of the Union Jack flag for fear of offending countries which were previously under the British Empire?

One of the most promiment, powerfull and recognizable flags of the 20th Century and a major symbol of WW2 and it is not included in the game - yet the communist flag of Russia is (and let us not forget, communism was responsible for millions of deaths as well as Fascism).

	03-03-2003 10:26									#2
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The game was developed in Sweden and as far as I understand things they have laws about Nazi stuff. I know that various countries in Europe have laws concerning things associated with Nazism and I think that's the case here.

I don't approve of the law, but I wouldn't want a great developer like Paradox to get in any trouble.

	03-03-2003 16:04									#3
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The swastika is a banned symbol in Germany, Italy and France (and probably elsewhere too).

	03-03-2003 17:53									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch The swastika is a banned symbol in Germany, Italy and France (and probably elsewhere too).

It is Fascist in itself to ban a symbol outright because a certain group used it to symbolise themselves.

	03-03-2003 18:31									#5
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Its not Paradox fault that those nations ban the symbol.

	03-03-2003 23:30									#6
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It is Fascist in itself to ban a symbol outright because a certain group used it to symbolise themselves.

It's not banned because of the Nazis. It's banned because of the neoNazis. A certain group still uses it so symbolize itself. The ban will lapse with the fading away of those nutcases.

In the meantime, feel free to enjoy documentaries and schoolbooks for their use of the swastika is entirely legal.

As for the associate freedom issues, I'll take this moment to point out that many western democracies make the self-application of many substances illicit for no good reason.

	04-03-2003 04:58									#7
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Because mind-altering isn't always a good thing - sanctitiy of life and all that

	04-03-2003 07:52									#8
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Because swastikae aren't always a good thing - arson and murder and all that.

	04-03-2003 19:05									#9
	Re: Political Correctness getting in the way of Historical Accuracy Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Historical accuracy...
Well, again I come back to the point that Silesia, Kostrzyn and two Pomeranias should have Polish culture, Prussia Polish except for German, perhaps Brandenburg and Magdeburg as well, Luzyce should have Luzyczan one for example, and Memel - Lithuanian. So much when it comes to Germany itself.

	04-03-2003 20:12									#10
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If we are talking accuracy, the geography of the UK in HoI has a lot to be desired.

	04-03-2003 21:17									#11
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quote: Originally posted by MacTBone The game was developed in Sweden and as far as I understand things they have laws about Nazi stuff. I know that various countries in Europe have laws concerning things associated with Nazism and I think that's the case here.

Nope, as far as I know that's not the case here. It might however be the case they took other countries laws into consideration.

	05-03-2003 00:06									#12
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A mix of everything mentioned here is the real reasoning.

You can get the swastika from another source and put it into your game anyways. I put the swastika as the political German flag, and the Iron Cross as the isignia of the Wehrmacht. The army had nothing to do with nazism, so giving them that flag and associating them with that would be wrong, IMO.

Er, just my two cents.

	05-03-2003 00:54									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Trip The army had nothing to do with nazism, so giving them that flag and associating them with that would be wrong, IMO.

Nothing?

	05-03-2003 19:10									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Trip A mix of everything mentioned here is the real reasoning. You can get the swastika from another source and put it into your game anyways. I put the swastika as the political German flag, and the Iron Cross as the isignia of the Wehrmacht. The army had nothing to do with nazism, so giving them that flag and associating them with that would be wrong, IMO. Er, just my two cents.

Wehrmacht was commiting atrocities as well as any other German force, only a bit smaller.

	06-03-2003 09:41									#15
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I, too, was rather disgusted to see the 'Blood and Iron' tricolour when I first played HoI.

	06-03-2003 18:04									#16
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I'm not sure about in Germany or France, but the Commandos series of games shows the Swastika a lot. Its made by a Spanish company too.

I don't give it a second thought as I'm too busy blowing up fuel depots and knifing Germans.

	06-03-2003 18:41									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Trip A mix of everything mentioned here is the real reasoning. You can get the swastika from another source and put it into your game anyways. I put the swastika as the political German flag, and the Iron Cross as the isignia of the Wehrmacht. The army had nothing to do with nazism, so giving them that flag and associating them with that would be wrong, IMO. Er, just my two cents.

The German Army swore an Oath of allegance to Hitler, so that kinda does put them in an association with Nazism .

Further to the point, the Iron cross army flag:



This one? It was out of service by 1935 and was replaced with the following:

	06-03-2003 20:27									#18
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This thread is now illegal to view for all our German, Italian and French friends.

	07-03-2003 01:34									#19
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The Wehrmacht was disgusted by the SS its behavoirs and missions. The German Army still had a bit of honor to it.

	09-03-2003 22:09									#20
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ha ha ha

	10-03-2003 00:20									#21
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Since so many Europeans have banned the third reich flag then why hasn't the Soviet Flag been banned? After all more people were murdered by Stalin then by Hitler and Stalin enslaved half of Europe to boot.

The truth is they were both terrible but for historical purposes all the countries should be allowed their period flags, unit symbols, & what not.

	10-03-2003 02:03									#22
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The Wermacht had nothing to do with nazism.

The Officer Corps were mostly Prussian aristocrats, directly opposed to the leftish nazi ideals.

	10-03-2003 04:52									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Since so many Europeans have banned the third reich flag then why hasn't the Soviet Flag been banned?

Because the Soviet flag is not currently being used to promote racial hatred and violence.

	10-03-2003 10:32									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos The Wermacht had nothing to do with nazism. The Officer Corps were mostly Prussian aristocrats, directly opposed to the leftish nazi ideals.

Thank you.

	10-03-2003 17:50									#25
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I see you do enjoy dry wit.

	10-03-2003 20:08									#26
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Nothing to do with nazism? Perhaps.
I guess Serbian army didn't have much to do with Great Serbia ideology...
But they were commiting war crimes despite that.
Don't try to wipe your face clean with dirty lies

	11-03-2003 00:30									#27
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The Wermacht represented Germany, not a certain political party.

It is like saying that the USA army fights for Bush.jr and represents republican ideology.

And anyway it is my belief that the Germans fought an honourable war untill operation Barbarossa.

Matias, Great Serbia ideology is not limited to a certain Serbian political party. It is logical that constitutions such as the army will support nationalistic ideologies.

	11-03-2003 02:42									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I see you do enjoy dry wit.

Don't tempt me so.

	11-03-2003 02:45									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos The Wermacht represented Germany, not a certain political party. It is like saying that the USA army fights for Bush.jr and represents republican ideology. And anyway it is my belief that the Germans fought an honourable war untill operation Barbarossa. Matias, Great Serbia ideology is not limited to a certain Serbian political party. It is logical that constitutions such as the army will support nationalistic ideologies.

Yes. The Wehrmacht fought for the sake of Germany, because Germany was going to war. They weren't fighting for the Nazis, and there was a great sense of anger and disrespect in the Wehrmacht towards those involved with Nazism. Where the Wehrmacht saw a chance to gain allies in the USSR by supporting the peasants trying to dethrone Stalin, the Nazis saw an opportunity to supress and oppress because of their ideology proclaiming Soviets as sub-human and insignificant. The Wehrmacht and the Nazi structure had nothing to do with each other.

	11-03-2003 02:51									#30
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Correct, but one should not forget that nazism innovations made the Werhrmacht so effective.

F.e The new armoured warfare doctrine(although developed by a non-nazi) was adopted by the nazis.

The Prussian aristocrats were all old school soldiers resenting innovations and new technology, putting instead their trust in the foot soldier. "A footman ,equiped with the right arms, can face anything".