04-03-2003 10:18									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune There is absolutely no excuse for fake science.

Sure there is -- if the real science has an overwhelming potential to cause a great deal of harm, then the fake science wins out. If I accidentally developed a cheap easily mass-produced weapon with an incredible destructive potential, then you'd better believe that I'd probably make myself forget what I'd developed. The whole purpose of science is to benefit mankind -- if a scientific discovery will, on the contrary, harm mankind, then bury the ****er.

	04-03-2003 10:22									#32
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quote: This is an *assumption*, not a scientific lie.

It's treated like a fact.

	04-03-2003 10:26									#33
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Well, it seems as though Comrade Tribune and I are on the same side of this issue. That means I must be wrong. I guess in such a case Stefu presented the truth shouldn't be published.

	04-03-2003 10:28									#34
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Shi's switching sides? Dammit, now I've got to switch sides...

Seriously, though, the benefits may outweigh the harm in a hypothetical like this, but I doubt it (particularly since the benefits would almost certainly be related to genetic testing/engineering, which is Satan's work...)

	04-03-2003 10:32									#35
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger If I accidentally developed a cheap easily mass-produced weapon with an incredible destructive potential, then you'd better believe that I'd probably make myself forget what I'd developed.

1) Sooner or later, somebody else would develop it.

2) You are talking about an invention, not a discovery. Makes a difference.

	04-03-2003 10:43									#36
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And, btw, think about the implications: In our hypothetical scenario, someone else might come up with the truth. That person may be not a racist, just someone believing in calling the shots as he sees them.

Now, this person is going to be called a crook, for the very bad reasons mentioned in this thread. Suppose you *know* that what he says is true, by keeping silent you are acting contrarily to civic virtue, whatever you believe you are doing.

The only ones who I would expect to act like that are 1) people who havenīt thought it through, 2) cowards, 3) those who 'wouldnīt recognize civic virtue if it bites their ass' (Starship Troopers).

	04-03-2003 10:43									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune 1) Sooner or later, somebody else would develop it.

That's hardly a given, nor is it an excuse even if it were a given. The fact that Person X is just going to die sooner or later anyway is not a sufficient justification for me to help him/her let loose his/her moral coil. The assumption that mankind is eventually going to develop Weapon X anyway is no excuse for me to develop Weapon X now.

quote: 2) You are talking about an invention, not a discovery. Makes a difference.

1. How does it make a difference?
2. Since we're talking hypotheticals anyway, assume that this weapon is simply the intuitive utilization of a scientific discovery, e.g. "According to the Semi-Implicit Zweiben-Quantized Theory of Advanced Slurmification, if you cook baking powder, polyester, and cherry soda in a microwave for thirty seconds and mix the contents with cow pies then you will create a substance with the destructive force of a 20-megaton nuke."

	04-03-2003 10:48									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune And, btw, think about the implications ... by keeping silent you are acting contrarily to civic virtue, whatever you believe you are doing.

Neat -- so, from our answers to one hypothetical, you're able to infallibly extrapolate everybody's answers to a different hypothetical, and thus conclude that those who disagree with you lack civic virtue? IIRC, that's called a Strawman.

Deal with our answers to the hypothetical as provided -- don't start adding more scientists and pulling extrapolations out of thin air.

	04-03-2003 10:49									#39
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger The assumption that mankind is eventually going to develop Weapon X anyway is no excuse for me to develop Weapon X now.

In fact there is. You donīt want that weapon to accidentally fall into the hands of Genghis Khan.

quote: Originally posted by loinburger 1. How does it make a difference?

See my post directly above yours.

	04-03-2003 10:51									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune In fact there is. You donīt want that weapon to accidentally fall into the hands of Genghis Khan.

And the best way to prevent this is to publish my results?

quote: See my post directly above yours.

That post fails to answer my question. It doesn't even address my question.

	04-03-2003 10:52									#41
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Deal with our answers to the hypothetical as provided -- don't start adding more scientists and pulling extrapolations out of thin air.

Somebody *would* come up with it. This is a reasonable assumption, not a strawman.

	04-03-2003 10:56									#42
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger That post fails to answer my question.

Only because you fail to understand my point.

	04-03-2003 10:56									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Somebody *would* come up with it. This is a reasonable assumption, not a strawman.

1. This is not a reasonable assumption. Scientific discoveries are made in leaps and bounds -- if one particular leap isn't made, then an alternate leap usually takes its place, and progress continues independently of the missed leap.
2. Your extrapolation was in assuming what answers would be given to your new hypothetical based on the answers to the given hypothetical. This was a strawman.

	04-03-2003 10:58									#44
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Whatcho talking about Willis?!

	04-03-2003 10:58									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Only because you fail to understand my point.

Nowhere in that post did you draw the distinction between an "invention" and a "discovery." You didn't even use the term "invention" except in your bald assertion that inventions and discoveries are different.

	04-03-2003 10:58									#46
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quote: If I accidentally developed a cheap easily mass-produced weapon with an incredible destructive potential, then you'd better believe that I'd probably make myself forget what I'd developed.

You wouldn't want to conquer the world?

	04-03-2003 11:00									#47
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger 2. Your extrapolation was in assuming what answers would be given to your new hypothetical based on the answers to the given hypothetical. This was a strawman.

I donīt think so. Both possible positions of Stefuīs example do exist, as a matter of fact. So if you discovered beyond doubt that one is true, you would by burying the truth act contrarily to civic virtue.

	04-03-2003 11:02									#48
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You wouldn't want to conquer the world?

What would be the fun in that? I'd need a whacked out political/religious ideology first, and those are a real pain in the ass to develop. (I suppose that I could just pick and choose from the whacked out Apolyton ideologies, but that would feel like cheating -- if I'm going to conquer the world in the name of a whacked out ideology, then I'd want that ideology to be Original Loinburger Quality.)

	04-03-2003 11:03									#49
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Nowhere in that post did you draw the distinction between an "invention" and a "discovery."

Burying an invention, you wouldnīt help in discrediting those who know the truth. Burying a discovery, you would. Particularly in a case like Stefuīs.

	04-03-2003 11:04									#50
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger What would be the fun in that? I'd need a whacked out political/religious ideology first, and those are a real pain in the ass to develop.

Wutang is for the children!

	04-03-2003 11:05									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune I donīt think so. Both possible positions of Stefuīs example do exist, as a matter of fact.

Stefu's example has one team of scientists. Your strawman contains an additional team.

	04-03-2003 11:06									#52
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Stefu's example has one team of scientists. Your strawman contains an additional team.

See my post 4 posts above yours.

	04-03-2003 11:07									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Wutang is for the children!

:smacks forehead: Of course! Look out world, you're about to undergo Wutangification!

	04-03-2003 11:09									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune See my post 4 posts above yours.

Which post is that? You mean the one that I had quoted in the post of mine that you just quoted? You can infer that I have read a post if I have quoted it, particularly if that post consists of two terse lines.

	04-03-2003 11:11									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Burying an invention, you wouldnīt help in discrediting those who know the truth. Burying a discovery, you would. Particularly in a case like Stefuīs.

In Stefu's case, it is assumed that nobody else would undertake the research project after your own team's results are published. You don't risk discrediting anybody, unless of course you've changed the hypothetical again.

	04-03-2003 11:13									#56
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Loin, let me recommend some Tylenol - it does wonders after continually banging your head against the wall like that.

	04-03-2003 11:16									#57
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Nobody argues with me IRL, and I've gotta work off my argumentative streak somewhere...

	04-03-2003 11:24									#58
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It is rumored that black men have it where it counts most.

	04-03-2003 11:25									#59
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They have extra fingers?

"... But my hands go to 11."

	05-03-2003 05:13									#60
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quote: What would be the fun in that? I'd need a whacked out political/religious ideology first, and those are a real pain in the ass to develop. (I suppose that I could just pick and choose from the whacked out Apolyton ideologies, but that would feel like cheating -- if I'm going to conquer the world in the name of a whacked out ideology, then I'd want that ideology to be Original Loinburger Quality.)

Classic rant... ideologies are cheap. Look at EvC! How hard can they be?