03-03-2003 10:20									#1
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I've been thinking of making this thread for some time, but been leery, because someone would misunderstand, anyway. However, now I'm tired from a night of involuntary insomnia, so it's all right!

Anyway, let's say we have a bunch of scientists do genetic research. Let's say they find there's a small but noticeable genetic intelligence gap between blck people and white people. (Not that I'm suggesting such a gap exists, mind you. Keep in mind that this is all just a scenario.) They find that it's not explainable by cultural issues, nutrition, anything like that - they've proven it beyond doubt that it's genetic that black people, on the whole, are somewhat less smart than whites.

They know pretty well that they're the only team that's researching *just* this issue, and if they just announce that the results showed no difference whatsoever between blacks and whites, their word will be taken as the God's own truth. OTOH, if they come out with the real results of their studies, it's likely to give considerable fodder for racists everywhere - there's no knowing how far the ramifications will go.

Do you think that they should fib the results or publish them as they are?

	03-03-2003 10:27									#2
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Interesting question. No the truth doesn't always need to get out, and in this case I'd probably decline from revealing the results and just bury them.

	03-03-2003 10:29									#3
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I think I've seen this same hypothetical somewhere before. Can't remember for sure, though.

:shrugs: I dunno, I s'pose that my inclination might be to fib, since the results probably won't benefit anybody (if you're genetically predisposed to being less intelligent, whateryougonnadoaboutit?) and have the potential for causing a great deal of harm. On the other hand, there's the potential that the results could spur advances in genetic research that could pinpoint the genetic roots of intelligence (or lack thereof) to everybody's benefit. In other words, Banana.

	03-03-2003 10:30									#4
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I don't think results of science should ever be squelched because we don't like the results. I think it is very important we use the scientific method and go with the best data we have.

	03-03-2003 11:09									#5
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Interesting question Stef.
I think both Loin/Imran and Shi make good points.
I think I will side with Loin/Imran. If some form of research is clearly to the detriment of humanity as a whole, then I would probably bury it.

	03-03-2003 11:12									#6
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Screw that. Submit the results.

	03-03-2003 11:13									#7
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And Shi's absolutely wrong. If I found a way to build a bomb that would kill everybody on the planet and was easily made out of household ingredients I'd squash it.

	03-03-2003 12:44									#8
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truth shall set you free.

	03-03-2003 12:50									#9
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lie and say they never did it.

they will screw their careers up by doing something like that, even if they are right. Not to mention upset the world order.

If you have noticed. You can see how political correctness has invaded the academic and scientific community.

	03-03-2003 12:55									#10
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I'm a firm believer that bananas will always come out in the end.

	03-03-2003 13:23									#11
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"I think I will side with Loin/Imran. If some form of research is clearly to the detriment of humanity as a whole, then I would probably bury it."

Well, I don't view the purpose of science as just something to find ways to benefit humanity. I think science should exist discover truths and laws of the universe and our world, and the persuit of the knowledge of those is a noble aim.(although there may be some extreme circumstnace such as KH's in which we may have to reconsider). Buit even looking at it from the benefit/detriment to the society outlook, I think it is more to society's detriment if we expect scientists to first consider whether or not their findings are going to benefit humanity before publishing. I think society is benefited with a disinterested pursuit of knowledge that seeks to discover the truth whether we like it or not.

	03-03-2003 13:53									#12
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No. If truth significantly damages society, it's better that it be buried. As far as I can tell, there would be absolutely no societal benefits from this information. Maybe if this were a small part in a larger genetic study, but in that case, the small part could be axed. OTOH, clearly racism would increase substantially with the dissemination of this information, regardless of how small the difference were.

quote: Buit even looking at it from the benefit/detriment to the society outlook, I think it is more to society's detriment if we expect scientists to first consider whether or not their findings are going to benefit humanity before publishing. I think society is benefited with a disinterested pursuit of knowledge that seeks to discover the truth whether we like it or not.

Science nearly always doesn't hurt society in any significant way directly, so this is pretty much a nonissue.

	03-03-2003 14:11									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Well, I don't view the purpose of science as just something to find ways to benefit humanity. I think science should exist discover truths and laws of the universe and our world, and the persuit of the knowledge of those is a noble aim.(although there may be some extreme circumstnace such as KH's in which we may have to reconsider). Buit even looking at it from the benefit/detriment to the society outlook, I think it is more to society's detriment if we expect scientists to first consider whether or not their findings are going to benefit humanity before publishing. I think society is benefited with a disinterested pursuit of knowledge that seeks to discover the truth whether we like it or not.

You are right.

I would just add that in most real cases, we will not be able to assess the possible consequences, and at which time they will appear.

	03-03-2003 16:10									#14
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Should scientists take responsibility for what they create?

If a scientist creates a new biological weapon, is the scientist justified in saying that they're not responsible for how the weapon is used, that society will benefit from a disinterested pursuit of knowledge that seeks to discover the truth whether we like it or not.

	03-03-2003 17:14									#15
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They should burn the study and forget about it.
I wonder if this poll would have taken another turn if you had mentioned that black people were the ones favored by that gap.

	03-03-2003 18:09									#16
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Genetic Stupidity.

quote: Stupidity should be cured, says DNA discoverer Fifty years to the day from the discovery of the structure of DNA, one of its co-discoverers has caused a storm by suggesting that stupidity is a genetic disease that should be cured. .... If you are really stupid, I would call that a disease," says Watson, now president of the Cold Spring Harbour Laboratory. ..... Watson, no stranger to controversy, also suggests that genes influencing beauty could also be engineered. "People say it would be terrible if we made all girls pretty. I think it would be great."

	03-03-2003 18:27									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu They should burn the study and forget about it. I wonder if this poll would have taken another turn if you had mentioned that black people were the ones favored by that gap.

You stole my line!

	03-03-2003 19:08									#18
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Watson rocks.
The "should all girls(and boys) be pretty if we have the genetic means to make it so?" question is an interesting thread topic itself.

	03-03-2003 20:21									#19
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the truth doesn't have to get out. control of the truth is what keeps most governments in power.

would i like the truth 24/7? ideally, yes. i'd like to know whats going on and not be lied to.

but the truth is harsh. there are some things i shouldn't know, and probably don't want to know.

as outplayed as it is, this quote from a few good men rings true.

quote: Col. Jessup: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH. Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you dont talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

	03-03-2003 20:26									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I don't think results of science should ever be squelched because we don't like the results. I think it is very important we use the scientific method and go with the best data we have.

But I still don't think there shouldn't be equal rights/opprotunity for everyone. Even if they are genetically inferior.

	03-03-2003 21:09									#21
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX the truth doesn't have to get out. control of the truth is what keeps most governments in power. would i like the truth 24/7? ideally, yes. i'd like to know whats going on and not be lied to. but the truth is harsh. there are some things i shouldn't know, and probably don't want to know. as outplayed as it is, this quote from a few good men rings true. quote: Col. Jessup: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH. Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you dont talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

This text does not illustrate what you say. It describes a man who accepts the truth and acts according to what he thinks is good for his community. And an other man who refuses to see the truth, but does take advantage nevertheless of the consequences resulting from the actions perpetrated by the man accepting the truth.

But truth about events does not fall into the same category than scientific discoveries. States need some privacy, as individuals do, but limiting the propagation of knowledge would put an end to its extension. Fortunately we are not on this trend.

	03-03-2003 21:51									#22
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I allways like to play mind games with "what if this and that", mostly the stuff I think about is even less probable than this is. Unfortunately many times I end up with the result: I don't know. So many good points against and for lying. Banana it is.

	04-03-2003 00:22									#23
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loinburger:

What about Mendel's thumb?

Report the results. If they have misgivings about the results of their experiment, then don't conduct one. Once they do the results, they should publish.

If they lie, or fudge the results, their researches will hinder others, especially if it becomes accepted knowledge.

	04-03-2003 00:37									#24
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before publishing the results, i'd suggest that multiple other studies be undertaken, with different staff/scientists and even with some varying methodologies to ensure the results aren't through some mistake.

if it were found to be a mistake, it ought to "have never taken place"; if it were the truth, there's not much one can do but publish.

	04-03-2003 00:42									#25
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A research studying the inherent mental differences will do very little to promote the research for the smart gene (see thread), since its' criteria is phenotypical, and not certain genes, and how do they influence people. What it will do is create ethnic tension.

Therefore, it is rather clear that this sort of research would be done by biased scientists, and wouldn't be trustworthy material anyway.

	04-03-2003 09:50									#26
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Publish the Truth.

There is absolutely no excuse for fake science.

In fact, if a scientist knowingly publishes fake results, he should get punished -hard.

	04-03-2003 09:57									#27
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My gut feeling is to say no. With increased racial intermingling and the gap correspondingly decreasing as the centuries pass, today's "fact" is already known to be tomorrows fiction. So why report something that won't remain true?

But then I think about the above arguement and realize that I could just as easily say "yes, release today" because in the long run it won't matter.

The really interesting thing is that Stefu's question is just stuffed with the notion of his superiority in regards to this issue - it assumes that he will be the one declared smarter. If it were the other way around, ala if it were determined that black people had a 10% advantage over whites, would you want the news released?

Edit: Richeleau and Stuie got to my conclusion first.

Last edited by JohnT on 04-03-2003 at 10:10

	04-03-2003 10:06									#28
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The number of advocates of dishonesty both on the Right and Left is *amazing*.

An obvious symptom of decline and decadence.

No way can the betterment of humanity be built on lies.

	04-03-2003 10:10									#29
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It always has. Such as (for example) 'our lives matter', when cosmically speaking they really don't.

	04-03-2003 10:14									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Such as (for example) 'our lives matter', when cosmically speaking they really don't.

This is an *assumption*, not a scientific lie.

The major religions assume the entire cosmos was built for the sake of us. You canīt scientifically disprove them.