03-03-2003 20:46									#1
	Gay bashing does still happen, contrary to misconceptions... Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

See, this is why I don't go to uptown gay bars.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/st...95p-59741c.html

quote: 3 busted in gay attack E. Side victim tells how he survived vicious beating By NICOLE BODE, ALICE McQUILLAN and GREG GITTRICH DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS Cardiac tech Raymond Spreng of upper East Side wears bruises from run-in yesterday with anti-gay attackers. Three suspects are in custody. Raymond Spreng first noticed the three men behind him when he turned down E. 86th St - but thinks they had been stalking him for several blocks, ever since he left an upper East Side gay bar. It was just after 4 o'clock yesterday morning, and Spreng, a cardiac technician, headed quickly toward East End Ave. He hoped the well-lit sidewalks around Gracie Mansion would protect him. But the rowdy trio didn't turn back. They charged him, screaming an anti-gay slur as they attacked him, Spreng said in an interview with the Daily News yesterday. "I'm going to kill you, f-----," Spreng said he remembered one of the men saying. They yelled the anti-gay slur repeatedly as they mercilessly beat the 53-year-old Spreng to the ground and slammed a discarded bicycle frame against his head, according to police sources. For 10 long minutes, Spreng battled his attackers just off East End Ave. All along, he yelled for help. On the ground, he did the best he could to cover his face as they pummeled him. Blood gushed from a gash in Spreng's forehead, poured over his face and soaked the sweater under his black leather jacket. No one was nearby, and Spreng realized he'd have to fight back if he was going to survive. At one point he defiantly told the men: "I'll make sure you go to jail." Somehow he managed to get to his feet. He recalled that he then began wiping and literally hurling handfuls of his blood onto the men. "I wanted to get my blood on them for identification - to mark them," he said. "I went after them. ... That was the only thing I could defend myself with - my blood, that they drew." Finally Spreng heard "the most beautiful sound ever" - a police siren. His alleged attackers - Oscar Afre, 22; Christopher Pan, 26, and Sucjovic Mirsad, 22, all of Queens - were nabbed at the scene and charged with first-degree assault. Spreng was rushed to Weill Cornell Medical Center, where he was treated for deep cuts and bruises. Reacting to hatred He spoke to The News later from his home. "I'm outraged that this hatred is still going on," Spreng said. "And for what? I could have been killed. ... I would like them to be punished. I also would like them to really understand what they did." Spreng said he made the short walk several times from the Tool Box, a bar on Second Ave. near 91st St., to his apartment a few blocks away. "I never ever thought that it was going to happen to me," he said. Only seconds before the attack, Spreng said he had turned to face the charging men. Raising his hands, he said he told them: "I don't want any trouble from you." But, according to Spreng, the smallest of his attackers yelled: "You don't want any trouble from me. I'm going to give you trouble." In 2001, there were 547 anti-gay crimes in the city, down from 616 in 2000, according to the New York City Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Project. But the group said the number of assaults with weapons rose 20% over the same period. In Queens, Afre's mother cried when told that her son had been arrested. "We're not against gays," Lidia Afre, 59, said sitting under a framed photo of Jesus in the family's Sunnyside apartment. "I hope this guy gets better." She then said of her jailed son: "How can he be so stupid?"

The last line is indeed the question...

	03-03-2003 20:50									#2
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quote: Gay bashing does still happen, contrary to misconceptions...

What misconceptions?

	03-03-2003 20:51									#3
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I assume you are well versed with the death of Matthew Shepard?

	03-03-2003 20:51									#4
	Re: Gay bashing does still happen, contrary to misconceptions... Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The last line is indeed the question...

Well, mom, maybe you forgot to teach your son about tolerance while he was growing up.

Crap like this makes me sick.

	03-03-2003 21:04									#5
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: Gay bashing does still happen, contrary to misconceptions... What misconceptions?

A lot of people (some on this message board) think that gays aren't targeted for harrassment any more. There was a discussion about the Gay Olympics a while ago in which some folks asserted that gay bashing was practically extinct as a practice. Just showing it's alive and well.

Some conservative pundits (like Dr. Laura) also like to deny that it is still a problem, as if after Matthew Sheppard the country magically changed into a wonderland of tolerance.

	03-03-2003 22:07									#6
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This sucks.

	03-03-2003 22:09									#7
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i bash gays verbally all the time. you know me boris most of it is just jokes that some people take the wrong way. i like playing the comical non-PC guy sometimes.

	03-03-2003 22:12									#8
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Kidding with gays you know and who know you're not serious isn't verbal bashing.

	03-03-2003 22:15									#9
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with what i say it is

no punch is too low in our gang.

	03-03-2003 22:16									#10
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There are a lot of stupid-ass people in the world.

	03-03-2003 22:30									#11
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This is one reason I was originally FOR hate crimes.
Then I decided, if someone kills a Gay, it could be because of totally unrelated issues, not BECAUSE of Gayness.
You know what I mean. A guy goes ballistic, kills people, and it's found out he smokes pot, or is a Veteran.
Ahhh. He smokes pot or he's a Veteran.
That's the reason. Uh, no. It's not.
So I'm no longer a supporter of Hate Crime legislation.
Murder is murder.

Let me ask something, and I DO NOT mean this in any way but to educate myself, as well as put forth a proposition.

Why are Gays..Gay?
If it's a choice, and one believes in freedom of choice and separation of Church and State, how does one condemn Gays?

If it's something to do with genes, and the Gay has no choice, wouldn't that be comparable to killing someone because they have Down's Syndrome?

	03-03-2003 22:32									#12
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The difficulty with bashing is that it is sometimes politically correct, and sometimes not. The danger of bashing is that it begins vocal and can end physical. It is based on the worst instincts of men which is to attack the people that they dont understand. Demagogues know that and use it.

It is quite worrying that the medias often encourage bashing and sometimes initiate it. Any bashing is a signal that we are not able to make the effort required to understand.

	03-03-2003 22:41									#13
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Well, maybe his mother didn't taught him that every man is equal and that you can't attack people at early age.
I think these people are mostly violent, anti-gay second. If there weren't any gays in this world, the same people would go attacking some other group.

	03-03-2003 22:46									#14
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand This is one reason I was originally FOR hate crimes. Then I decided, if someone kills a Gay, it could be because of totally unrelated issues, not BECAUSE of Gayness. You know what I mean. A guy goes ballistic, kills people, and it's found out he smokes pot, or is a Veteran. Ahhh. He smokes pot or he's a Veteran. That's the reason. Uh, no. It's not. So I'm no longer a supporter of Hate Crime legislation. Murder is murder.

For the record, Hate Crime statues don't just say that if someone kills a gay/black/whatever person, it's automatically a hate crime. The prosecution has to establish through evidence that the attacker targeted the victim specifically because of that trait, be it sexual orientation, race, religion, gender, etc. Such laws are also non-specific in terms of coverage (i.e., ALL sexual orientations are protected, not just minority ones).

	03-03-2003 22:50									#15
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Statutes. Statues are relatively harmless.

Ok.

	03-03-2003 22:51									#16
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You've never seen Don Giovanni then.

	03-03-2003 23:00									#17
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He's a Texan, what do you expect?


Yes, yes, I didn't see Don Giovanni , either.

	03-03-2003 23:00									#18
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Well what do Hate Crime statutes do? I mean, yes it goes after those that target a class specifically, but what punishment does that lead to?

	03-03-2003 23:03									#19
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Or "A clockwork Orange"

	03-03-2003 23:06									#20
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quote: Well, mom, maybe you forgot to teach your son about tolerance while he was growing up.

Her son's an adult. Isn't he responsible for his own actions?

Secondly, Boris, what does it take to classify a crime as directed against gay people? Use of derogatory terms intended for gays when pummeling your victim?

	03-03-2003 23:15									#21
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I'm sorry but straight guys get bashed all the time in assault too. Violence against men is still higher than violence against women.

I'm not supporting gay bashing. I'm just saying it should be treated equally with other bashing of human beings.

The punishment should be the same for either case.

	03-03-2003 23:17									#22
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Secondly, Boris, what does it take to classify a crime as directed against gay people? Use of derogatory terms intended for gays when pummeling your victim?

Stalking an individual and then assaulting them (because the person happened to be seen leaving a gay night club) is a crime directed against gay people.

Using derogatory terms while they are attacking their intended victim is just icing on the cake.

	03-03-2003 23:29									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel He's a Texan, what do you expect?

Well, Texas is the home of the Houston Grand Opera, one of the country's most prominent opera companies.

quote: Yes, yes, I didn't see Don Giovanni , either.

Imagine a walking, talking statue coming in and dragging Don Juan off to Hell.

quote: Secondly, Boris, what does it take to classify a crime as directed against gay people? Use of derogatory terms intended for gays when pummeling your victim?

Considering, as Wittlich pointed out, these scumbags targeted a guy coming out of a gay bar, followed him and then beat him for no other apparent reason, I'd say it should be classified as crime based on sexual orientation.

Even an assault based on perceived sexual orientation would qualify.

I'm not opposed to Hate Crime laws, but I would make it somewhat difficult to prove it. Since intent is usually considered in charging people with crimes (i.e. aggravated assault vs. simple assault, First-degree murder vs. manslaughter), I have no ethical complainst against such statutes. Or statues, as the case may be.

	03-03-2003 23:30									#24
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 Or "A clockwork Orange"

Actually, I have seen this.
It, and Pink Floyd The Wall made me queasy.
The part with Sid shaving off his nipples, in particular.

	03-03-2003 23:32									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm sorry but straight guys get bashed all the time in assault too. Violence against men is still higher than violence against women.

I don't think many straight men are targeted for beatings because of their sexual orientation, however. Violence against men is higher because by large men are beating other men. Stupid hormones.

quote: I'm not supporting gay bashing. I'm just saying it should be treated equally with other bashing of human beings. The punishment should be the same for either case.

Should manslaughter and First-Degree murder get the same punishment?

	03-03-2003 23:35									#26
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I admit there are still a few on the lunatic fringe who might do something like this, but attacks like this I think most people would condemn. There are still anti-black hate crimes but that doesn't meant we need a black olympics.

	03-03-2003 23:40									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I admit there are still a few on the lunatic fringe who might do something like this, but attacks like this I think most people would condemn.

I don't think these three were lunatics. There is still a tremendous amount of hostility towards homosexuals among people, especially in terms of urban youth, street gangs, etc.

Last year I was walking down my block and these three white kids, probably 7-8 years old, were racing each other down the block. One of them shouted out "Last one to the end is a faggot!" And they all laughed gleefully.

Oh ho ho ho, ha ha ha! Such imps!

	03-03-2003 23:45									#28
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I know what you're talking about, Boris. I always try to correct these people, saying it is wrong to say such things.

	03-03-2003 23:50									#29
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Isn't "gay" a deragatory word used by American teenagers?

"OMG, thats just gay."

	03-03-2003 23:53									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Isn't "gay" a deragatory word used by American teenagers? "OMG, thats just gay."

Homosexuals were using "gay" as a self-descriptive long before it was ever used in such a fashion. That some idiots choose to use it as a derogatory term isn't reason to go and changing it...