03-03-2003 23:39									#31
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Nope. Note my use of the word "option" in my first post.

And what if those people are completely composed of your 'bad' genes?

	03-03-2003 23:43									#32
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Sucks to be them. I wouldn't wish their fate on anybody to be certain (it's no fun being dealt from the bottom of the deck), but it's not like their bad genes make them evil or anything -- they just give them disadvantages, disadvantages that I personally would prefer that my kids do without.

	03-03-2003 23:43									#33
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the problem i have with it is that of where do you stop. you could start out by removing for example (relevant to gatekeeper and i on this forum) a pre-disposition to develop diabetis, but how long before things such as stupidity and uglyness become 'defects' which need to be ironed out. it's a very grey area and one which i personally feel we would be far better off not getting into.

	03-03-2003 23:44									#34
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quote: And what if those people are completely composed of your 'bad' genes?

What do you mean by that?

	03-03-2003 23:44									#35
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anyone seen Gattaca?

Jon Miller

	03-03-2003 23:46									#36
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Yup.

	03-03-2003 23:47									#37
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Yes. and NO, I DON'T ENVISION A WORLD LIKE THAT.

	03-03-2003 23:49									#38
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yup

	03-03-2003 23:49									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh 'kidding'???!!! I'm not f****** 'kidding', you dipshit! That's the whole point! Selective breeding/genetic engineering is evil no matter whether you are breeding out big noses, low grades, or crap moderator skills. So go suck on your toast

Just in case you get smart and edit this post out, I want to preserve it for posterity!

	03-03-2003 23:50									#40
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So, lionburger, perhaps you would like to enlighten us as to which genes you would 'remove'?

	03-03-2003 23:51									#41
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I still don't know what does RJ mean by "Full of bad genes"...

	03-03-2003 23:56									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh So, lionburger, perhaps you would like to enlighten us as to which genes you would 'remove'?

I answered that question on my first post.

	04-03-2003 00:00									#43
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I answered that question on my first post.

No you didn't. You said you would:

quote: genetically engineer the defects out of my kids, and for others to be given the same option. Why should my kids have to be saddled with myopia and allergies and bipolar disorder and all that jazz?

You still haven't defined what you regard as a 'defect'. Just what do you include in 'all that jazz'? For example, would you have removed picasso's 'defects'?

	04-03-2003 00:06									#44
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Various syndromes, predisposition to cancer, Alergies, deformation, blindness, deafness, all sorts of neural atrophies, predisposition to certain deseases.

	04-03-2003 00:16									#45
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Personally, I find most opposition to genetic engineering silly and misinformed. I don't think that subjecting our genes to the free market would result in decreased diversity or any other sorts of commonly-cited problems (like the infant becoming magically radioactive and creating a Master Race Of Fire-Breathing Robots to eradicate humanity).

On a related note, I do oppose patents on genes (and business methods and look'n'feel and algorithms).

	04-03-2003 00:20									#46
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quote: (like the infant becoming magically radioactive and creating a Master Race Of Fire-Breathing Robots to eradicate humanity).

If you believe movies and mini-series, it is possible, Like those idiotic series Mutant-X, and X-Men. Yes, he can pass through walls thanks to this very special protein, see.

	04-03-2003 00:28									#47
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I'd be happy to not pass on my short-sighted genes.

The thing is, because having short-sightedness is not a disadvantage because of glasses, contact lenses and laser surgery, the number of short-sighted people in the gene pool will increase. The same is true for other non-disabling genetic problems such as some types of diabetes, asthma and allergies. Eventually, without some genetic 'housekeeping', our species will become totally dependant on machines to keep us alive.

	04-03-2003 00:35									#48
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quote: The thing is, because having short-sightedness is not a disadvantage because of glasses, contact lenses and laser surgery, the number of short-sighted people in the gene pool will increase. The same is true for other non-disabling genetic problems such as some types of diabetes, asthma and allergies. Eventually, without some genetic 'housekeeping', our species will become totally dependant on machines to keep us alive.

exactly. This is wasting resources. We can even make eyesight better than normal, using genetic engineering.

	04-03-2003 00:41									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: The thing is, because having short-sightedness is not a disadvantage because of glasses, contact lenses and laser surgery, the number of short-sighted people in the gene pool will increase. The same is true for other non-disabling genetic problems such as some types of diabetes, asthma and allergies. Eventually, without some genetic 'housekeeping', our species will become totally dependant on machines to keep us alive. exactly. This is wasting resources. We can even make eyesight better than normal, using genetic engineering.

The percentage of people with a corrected genetic disadvantage will not increase unless it is selected for.

Even after some levelling of the playing field genetically disadvantaged people are less likely to procreate.

	04-03-2003 00:45									#50
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My english fails me, Big Crunch. could you please simple up the sentence?

	04-03-2003 00:50									#51
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I don't think you can improve human eyesight that easily. There are too many variables involved.

	04-03-2003 00:50									#52
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quote: My english fails me, Big Crunch. could you please simple up the sentence?

Only advantages are selected for (i.e increase percentage in the gene pool). Having a genetic disorder corrected does not give you an advantage over people who had good genes to begin with.


The only problem I can see (as a layperson) is that genetic mutations will not be so strongly selected against.

	04-03-2003 00:56									#53
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dp

my correction deafness - blindness is still quoted.

Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 04-03-2003 at 03:57

	04-03-2003 00:56									#54
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quote: We can even make eyesight better than normal, using genetic engineering.

Azazel:
So are you for genetic enhancement?

This is the problem. There is only one way to create a norm. Read Harrison Bergeron. We have to hinder those people who are better off, and boost those worse off through genetic engineering.

What do we accomplish this way? We have improved some people at the expense of others. We have not increased overall productivity.

As soon as you boost one person, the norms will shift. If everyone gets rid of their bad genes, we will simply find more. We will still have some worse off, and some better off.

Secondly, all our work will be undone in the next generation. We may correct for one gene, but new mutations always crop up. We will have to remain ever vigilant for new mutations in order to keep the human race up to snuff.

Once we are satisfied with ourselves, we have stopped evolving. So we will need to alter in order to keep up with every other animal. This is a sea change. Rather than improving/altering the environment to suit humans, we will change humans to suit the environment.

Once we start, we can't stop for biological and social reasons. No one will want to be left behind, yet we will never really be satisfied. This is the problem with genetic engineering.

I say we limit engineering to some very specific medical conditions; those that kill people at a young age. We have nothing to lose in these cases. Cystic Fibrosis will be one of those.

All others, blindness, manic-depressives, etc. should be left alone.

	04-03-2003 00:58									#55
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quote: Only advantages are selected for (i.e increase percentage in the gene pool). Having a genetic disorder corrected does not give you an advantage over people who had good genes to begin with. The only problem I can see (as a layperson) is that genetic mutations will not be so strongly selected against.

Ahh, I get it. very much correct. But still, even a part of the population having this gene is a waste.

Sandman: we can have experiments with animals, and how their genes develop their eye structure, and use it in that way. It is possible, we just need the research.

	04-03-2003 00:58									#56
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I understand what you're saying, Crunch, but lenses (such as those in the eye) are extremely intricate devices and even the slightest defect can have a substantial effect.

	04-03-2003 01:01									#57
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I was talking generally, diabetes, heart, kidney, cancer problems etc...

There are genetic predispositions to a problem, and there are obviously environmental causes that cannot be accounted for by genetic manipulation.

	04-03-2003 01:03									#58
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I don't see any problem with allowing people to genetically engineer their children to remove medical defects. I'm a lot less sure about allowing the engineering of increased intelligence or beauty.

	04-03-2003 01:04									#59
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quote: Sandman: we can have experiments with animals, and how their genes develop their eye structure, and use it in that way. It is possible, we just need the research.

Eye structure is only part of the problem. The real difficulty is in the brain. In order to get better eyesight, you would have to enlarge the part of the brain associated with it.

	04-03-2003 01:05									#60
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The thread title is misleading. Eugenics is the enforced selective breeding of human populations, a completely different concept than genetic engineering.