03-03-2003 22:21									#1
	Stupidity is genetic: Apolyton Eugenics Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

http://cooltech.iafrica.com/science/214107.htm

Watson, one of the people behind the DNA double-helix model, and a Nobel Prise laureate, believes that Genetic Engineering should be used to better humankind.

So? What do you think? Should people be made smarter, and more attractive, by genetic engineering? Notice, noone saying anything about forcefully castrating people, prohibiting breeding etc. Just imagine that this sort of treatment will make all kids great looking, healthy, and smart, while still looking very much like you, ala Gattacka, but without the 'serf' class, with rights of people being protected, and everyone competing on the same level.

What do you think?

I think it's ok. It's even right.

	03-03-2003 22:31									#2
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So what is the definition of perfect?

Hmmm... perhaps we should breed out Jewish genes?

	03-03-2003 22:33									#3
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If you are all for making people more attractive, are you effectively making the beer goggles gene mandatory.

	03-03-2003 22:34									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Hmmm... perhaps we should breed out Jewish genes?

I don't care if you are kidding... one more crack like that and you are toast.

	03-03-2003 22:36									#5
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there are no jewish genes, just as there are no spanish, english or french genes.

and noone talks about perfection as well:
if, IF, he's right, why would making all kids more agile, smart, strong, healthy, would be wrong?

	03-03-2003 22:37									#6
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Great looking is a concept that can only exist when there is a diversity of looking. With all girls pretty, we could not even say that they are pretty.

	03-03-2003 22:39									#7
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Would the necessary treatment be available to everyone for free?

Or would it be a preserve of the rich - to be more intelligent, fitter, stronger - giving only them the ability to get better jobs and more money. Class mobility would be a problem methinks.

	03-03-2003 22:42									#8
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quote: Great looking is a concept that can only exist when there is a diversity of looking. With all girls pretty, we could not even say that they are pretty.

So, basically, we need ugly people in order to have pretty people?

It's a well known fact, that people search for certain things in the opposite ( or sometimes the same ) sex, physically.

I think that not only this would make everyone more pleased, But will prevent from total *******s getting by with their looks only.

	03-03-2003 22:46									#9
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quote: Would the necessary treatment be available to everyone for free?

Obviously, YES.

	03-03-2003 22:46									#10
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perhaps we need to breed out human genes instead.

i favor radical genetic engineering treatments performed over a twenty-four hour period using multiple controlled releases of high-energy nuclear radiation spread out over regular intervals on the surface of the earth.

	03-03-2003 23:01									#11
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quote: Obviously, YES.

Azazel:
That's a big if for the real world.
How expensive would said manipulation be?

Secondly, what would you change, and why?

	03-03-2003 23:08									#12
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There's no such thing as a 'jewish gene'.

	03-03-2003 23:10									#13
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I'd be all for being given the option to genetically engineer the defects out of my kids, and for others to be given the same option. Why should my kids have to be saddled with myopia and allergies and bipolar disorder and all that jazz? **** those tricks. The benefits that my kids might gain by being blind, asthmatic, and crazy are far outweighed by the harm done to them by said disorders.

	03-03-2003 23:13									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Obviously, YES.

Why is it obvious?

I doubt genetic manipulation would be cheap, and I doubt many would want it to be nationally provided - I know of no society that provide free cosmetic surgery.

	03-03-2003 23:17									#15
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I'd be all for being given the option to genetically engineer the defects out of my kids, and for others to be given the same option. Why should my kids have to be saddled with myopia and allergies and bipolar disorder and all that jazz? **** those tricks. The benefits that my kids might gain by being blind, asthmatic, and crazy are far outweighed by the harm done to them by said disorders.

Sure, but this is different from trying to engineer super humans.

	03-03-2003 23:19									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I don't care if you are kidding... one more crack like that and you are toast.

'kidding'???!!! I'm not f****** 'kidding', you dipshit! That's the whole point! Selective breeding/genetic engineering is evil no matter whether you are breeding out big noses, low grades, or crap moderator skills.

So go suck on your toast

	03-03-2003 23:20									#17
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quote: The benefits that my kids might gain by being blind, asthmatic, and crazy are far outweighed by the harm done to them by said disorders.

So what do we do with those who are not our children, but who are already blind, asthmatic and crazy? Are they not persons as well?

Where do we stop, Loinburger?

Height is an advantage, tall people tend to get better jobs. Should we then pay for height modifications?

	03-03-2003 23:21									#18
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Height is an advantage, tall people tend to get better jobs. Should we then pay for height modifications?

Just stick your kids on a rack.

	03-03-2003 23:22									#19
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Obiwan: There are tens of deseases for which there is a genetical cause, and therefore could be treated genetically. If we find a cure to all those deseases, as well as enhancing various human abilities, we'll be able to afford it without any problem.

I think that this would be easily available in the 1st world, provided that those genes for encreased mental capacity will actually be a scientific fact. And if this gene would be able to be inserted retrovirally, I think that there should be no problem to mass produce it.

I agree with you there is a very big concern that 3rd world countries will be left out, but:
1) I think that we will have the moral concience to do it, and it wouldn't be based on racial discrimination, because the rich countries include all ethnicities.
2) Then, the moral problem would be the lack of the fair distribution of the treatment, not the treatment itself. One of the cures we'll be able to genetically tailor would be many types of cancer, which attack all people. A different example, showing the nature of the problem: now, there is an anti-AIDS drug, which is not perfect, but lets people live relatively long, and better lives. This drug doesn't reach the poorer countries, esp. in Africa, a fact that is terrible to me. But what is wrong here? the invention of the drug, or the fact that it doesn't reach everone?

What can be changed?
-Lots of genetic/hereditary deseases and conditions, the ones that harm a person's ability to function, will be cured.
-Cancer treatment.
-bigger longevity.
-enhanced physical abilities.
- If, indeed we could create more attractive people, I am all for it, Though I don't think we'll be able to find a formula for striking beauty.
- people with bigger creativity, larger mental capabilities. ( I don't think that this exist, but IF Watson is right, I don't think that this would be wrong )

	03-03-2003 23:26									#20
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Sure, but this is different from trying to engineer super humans.

Not by much. There's not a very big difference between making my kids "not crazy" and making them "not stupid."

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 So what do we do with those who are not our children, but who are already blind, asthmatic and crazy? Are they not persons as well?

Of course they're people -- I certainly wouldn't be taking the stance that I'm not a person, now would I? I'm a person, but I'm a person with a multitude of genetic defects, and I'd sure be a lot happier if I were a person without said defects. If I were given the option to have kids without saddling them with the same defects, then you'd better believe that I'd jump at the chance. IMO it would be cruel of me not to do so.

quote: Where do we stop, Loinburger?

:shrugs: I dunno. I'd personally draw the line where "removal of severe defects" changes to "superficial changes with no non-aesthetic value." That's still an awfully fuzzy line, though.

	03-03-2003 23:28									#21
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it's playing god, pure and simple. not something we should mess with.

	03-03-2003 23:28									#22
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I agree with you Az.

	03-03-2003 23:30									#23
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quote: Why is it obvious? I doubt genetic manipulation would be cheap, and I doubt many would want it to be nationally provided - I know of no society that provide free cosmetic surgery.

It save much more money in the long run, by saving on healthcare costs, later on.

quote: 'kidding'???!!! I'm not f****** 'kidding', you dipshit! That's the whole point! Selective breeding is evil no matter whether you are breeding out big noses, low grades, or crap moderator skills.

who talks about selective breeding?

quote: So what do we do with those who are not our children, but who are already blind, asthmatic and crazy? Are they not persons as well?

There are persons as well, and We'll do what we'll be able to help them, as we already do to sick and disabled people. Why should future generations suffer, though?

quote: Where do we stop, Loinburger?

All things that bring harm to the individual will be cured. What's wrong with that?

	03-03-2003 23:30									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Selective breeding is evil no matter whether you are breeding out big noses, low grades, or crap moderator skills.

I suppose it is awfully cruel for me to want to alleviate the suffering of my kids by ensuring that they're not saddled with the same defects as me... :shrugs: Evil is as evil does, I suppose.

	03-03-2003 23:34									#25
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quote: it's playing god, pure and simple. not something we should mess with.

We've been playing god since the beginning of history. It's what allowed us to become the most dominant species on the planet, with the largest biomass, as well.

	03-03-2003 23:35									#26
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I suppose it is awfully cruel for me to want to alleviate the suffering of my kids by ensuring that they're not saddled with the same defects as me... :shrugs: Evil is as evil does, I suppose.

So if there are genes which you would prevent from being passed on, are there also people who you would prevent from passing on their genes?

	03-03-2003 23:36									#27
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how so?

we've been exploiting the enviroment and attempting to compensate for our defects (glasses for the short-sighted to give but one example), but that is a world away from eugenics.

	03-03-2003 23:37									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh So if there are genes which you would prevent from being passed on, are there also people who you would prevent from passing on their genes?

Nope. Note my use of the word "option" in my first post.

	03-03-2003 23:39									#29
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quote: So if there are genes which you would prevent from being passed on, are there also people who you would prevent from passing on their genes?

Noone's saying that people should be stopped from reproducing, RJ.

	03-03-2003 23:39									#30
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The only genetic engineering I would put up with is that which leads to the end of genetic-based diseases. Yeah, maybe you can call it playing God, but I think God gave us brains in order to use them. If we eventually earn the knowledge to end genetic-rooted diseases, so much the better.

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