07-03-2003 02:30									#151
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quote: b) It is unfair to all other people, since they must financially and otherwise support them, while there is a solution to that problem. and yes, it's a problem. if it is not a problem, than why are they entitled to be supported financially?

Now you have to weigh costs.

How do you know genetic engineering will be cheaper than accomodation?

Do you believe that this will remain voluntary, given that parents will want to 'fix' their children?

quote: since THEY don't exist yet as a sentient entity when they are corrected, what difference does that make?

Deaf/Blind people are not sentient? Care to rephrase?

	07-03-2003 02:33									#152
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quote: It's a problem to the society, not to the person.

yes it is, the majority of the people of the various conditions want to be cured, not because they want to be like everyone else, but because it will make their lives easier.

quote: If they lived in a society where everyone was blind, they would not need special support.

That kind of society can exist in only a handful of places on earth, while other societies where other conditions are the norm cannot exist at all, and would, in any case be replaced by the people that had mutated to fix those genetic deseases.

quote: Think of it as compensation from society for being so rigid and unwelcoming to people outside the norm.

Erm, Why should I think of it that way? this is not the reason why it's given.

	07-03-2003 02:43									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel yes it is, the majority of the people of the various conditions want to be cured, not because they want to be like everyone else, but because it will make their lives easier.

And when did you become every disabled person's spokesman?

quote: That kind of society can exist in only a handful of places on earth, while other societies where other conditions are the norm cannot exist at all, and would, in any case be replaced by the people that had mutated to fix those genetic deseases. Erm, Why should I think of it that way? this is not the reason why it's given.

It doesn't matter where it exists, I was just trying to show why they need the support - because they don't fit into society. They can not function in a society that is not suited for their condition, thus they need support from the people who can to get by.

Like I said - It's not their problem, it's the society's.

	07-03-2003 02:43									#154
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Obiwan: as I've said REPEATEDLY, and this is also a reply to your '', these procedures are done at the zygote level, before even an embrio is developed. "Volountary" doesn't come to it, at all, since these people don't exist yet. we do, however take a look at the people living to day, and we see that clearly the vast majority are disadvanged from those conditions, and suffer from them, to some degree.

Therefore, it is good to fix those deseases.

quote: Now you have to weigh costs

When this package treatment will be introduced, Hundreds of billions of dollars, meaning lots of production will be saved, EACH YEAR, worldwide. Even if those resources are not used to the betterment of all humanity, and I wish they were, it will still be better than the current situation.

	07-03-2003 02:49									#155
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quote: "Volountary" doesn't come to it, at all, since these people don't exist yet.

Thanks for clarifying.

However, that argument's not going to work for me.

BTW- you might want to tighten your terminology. Zygotes are persons? Can you have persons who don't exist?

Could this form of genetic engineering be done on adults as well, or would that be a seperate technique?

quote: the vast majority are disadvanged from those conditions, and suffer from them, to some degree.

What 'conditions?' Surely we all have our flaws.

quote: Hundreds of billions of dollars, meaning lots of production will be saved, EACH YEAR, worldwide.

Speculation? Do you have a source for these numbers? What's the reasoning behind them?

	07-03-2003 02:52									#156
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quote: And when did you become every disabled person's spokesman?

If they're ok, and don't have any problems, then I guess I shouldn't support them, right?

quote: It doesn't matter where it exists, I was just trying to show why they need the support - because they don't fit into society.

that's not correct. they need support because they cannot sustain themselves without it.

quote: They can not function in a society that is not suited for their condition, thus they need support from the people who can to get by.

how would a society that is suited to their condition look? besides, each of these groups is a small minority. Why should we ignore the rest of the people? I am not saying that we shouldn't support them, because right now, that's the most we can do.

	07-03-2003 03:02									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel that's not correct. they need support because they cannot sustain themselves without it.

Yes, because the society does not allow them to. As I said, if a blind person lived in a society where eveyone as blind - he would obviously have the means of supporting himself. A blind person does not have the means of supporting himself in our society (well, not as easily anyways) and that is not because blind people are incapble of looking after themselves, it is because society isn't suited for them.

quote: how would a society that is suited to their condition look?

You're asking a very specific question about a very broad category of people, and I don't see what it really matters anyways. I'm not talking about making societies for blind people or anything, I'm just trying to show you that disabilities are relative to the society.

	07-03-2003 03:07									#158
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quote: BTW- you might want to tighten your terminology. Zygotes are persons? Can you have persons who don't exist?

Zygote is a fertilized egg cell. He will become a person in the womb, in time. but he's not one right now. The only reason coersion BY ITSELF is wrong is that the person that is forced, feels like he wanted to do one thing, and was forced to do something else. Since he's just a zygote at this stage, he couldn't be upset about anything.

quote: Could this form of genetic engineering be done on adults as well, or would that be a seperate technique?

we were taking blindness a specific case. This cannot be changed, since the gene engineering will invlove the genes responsible to the developement of the human, and the construction of the retina, eye, optic nerve ,etc. These stop working at adulthood, pretty much, and that's why genetic therapy cannot change the structure of your jaw, for example.

There are other sorts of deseases, for example syndromes related to deficiencies of certain materials in the body. these can be corrected during lifetime, since there damage is not a single-time damage, like a failure of developement, but a constant failure, of a process that repeats itself during the entire lifetime of the patient. this is done with a method called retroviral engineering, which will add a suplimental DNA to the current DNA, and will allow the synthesis of the needed proteins ( to synthesize the needed materials ). This method is currently not used, since it is in prototype stage only. IIRC experimental treatments have been done on some children that were hopelessly sick. 15 treatments succeeded, while the 16th kid died because of a malfunction of the process.

quote: Speculation? Do you have a source for these numbers? What's the reasoning behind them?

A very large percentage of healthcare budgets around the world go on the treatment of people with deseases that are based on genetics. we can prevent or limit the appearance of many deseases.

	07-03-2003 03:19									#159
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quote: The only reason coersion BY ITSELF is wrong is that the person that is forced, feels like he wanted to do one thing, and was forced to do something else. Since he's just a zygote at this stage, he couldn't be upset about anything.

Can one coerce a child?

quote: This cannot be changed, since the gene engineering will invlove the genes responsible to the developement of the human, and the construction of the retina, eye, optic nerve ,etc. These stop working at adulthood, pretty much, and that's why genetic therapy cannot change the structure of your jaw, for example.

Good. We've had a few 'perfectionists' here in this thread. Nice to hear from somebody who actually knows what he is talking about.

So for you, 'conditions' are those which we can narrow down to the action of specific genes?

Have you considered the possibility that we do not know what effects each gene has on its neighbours, that in changing one gene, we change the effectiveness of others?

	07-03-2003 03:35									#160
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quote: Can one coerce a child?

Yes. a child is a sensing human being.

quote: Good. We've had a few 'perfectionists' here in this thread. Nice to hear from somebody who actually knows what he is talking about.

I'm a chemistry student, and taking biology cources as well.

quote: So for you, 'conditions' are those which we can narrow down to the action of specific genes?

actions of specific genes, or groups of genes. There is no point discussing any other deseases in a thread that is about enhancing humans through genetic engineering.

quote: Have you considered the possibility that we do not know what effects each gene has on its neighbours, that in changing one gene, we change the effectiveness of others?

that's what research is for. And this is not something far-fetched, either. we can compare the genotypes of carriers, with the genotypes of healthy people. there are techniques.

	07-03-2003 03:46									#161
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quote: Yes, because the society does not allow them to.

Does society discriminate against them ? didn't think so , quite the other way around.

quote: As I said, if a blind person lived in a society where eveyone as blind - he would obviously have the means of supporting himself.

a seeing man would have the means to support him as well, and much better so. Therefor, having no sight is a disadvantage.

quote: A blind person does not have the means of supporting himself in our society (well, not as easily anyways) and that is not because blind people are incapble of looking after themselves, it is because society isn't suited for them.

Could you make clear, what is wrong with the society?

quote: You're asking a very specific question about a very broad category of people, and I don't see what it really matters anyways. I'm not talking about making societies for blind people or anything, I'm just trying to show you that disabilities are relative to the society.

I don't see how you showed me that. In a society in which everyone's blind, If one could exist on the earth, the seeing would still have an advantage over the blind, even more so, since their traits are unique.

	07-03-2003 04:18									#162
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quote: And when did you become every disabled person's spokesman?

When did you?

	07-03-2003 04:25									#163
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Coercion does not depend on the state of the acted, but on the actor alone. You don't need to sense, or to know you have been coerced.

to coerce:

1 : to restrain or dominate by force

Hence, one can coerce a child through force, just as one can coerce an embryo through force.

quote: There is no point discussing any other deseases in a thread that is about enhancing humans through genetic engineering.

What's the difference? The two are one side of the same coin. C'mon, say what this therapy can be used for. You've already eliminated some forms of blindness.

quote: We can compare the genotypes of carriers, with the genotypes of healthy people. there are techniques.

What about thalassema? This technique of research only works for those diseases without multiple affected genes. Thalassema is one where genomes are less helpful than ordinary family studies.

You see, when we compare two genomes, the so-called healthy person will differ from the 'carrier' along many bases. How would one tell which bases correspond to the disease? You would need to have a good idea of the effected people through epidemiological studies already avaible without genetic techniques.

	07-03-2003 04:51									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Does society discriminate against them ? didn't think so , quite the other way around.

What? Disabled people discriminate against society?

quote: a seeing man would have the means to support him as well, and much better so. Therefor, having no sight is a disadvantage. I don't see how you showed me that. In a society in which everyone's blind, If one could exist on the earth, the seeing would still have an advantage over the blind, even more so, since their traits are unique.

Not true. In a blind society there would be no roles where sight would make any difference. If anything, they'd be at a disadvantage because everything would be written in brail, and they would not be able to relate to others as easily.

quote: Could you make clear, what is wrong with the society?

I thought I made this pretty clear already - there is no room for disabled people in it. (Which is why society must support them)

	07-03-2003 05:11									#165
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Would a blind elephant be better suited to his environment? What about a seeing elephant amidst blind elephants?

The problem is, without eyesight our other senses would pick up the slack or we would devlope other ways to interpret our surroundings. The problem is that eyesight is important. All of our senses are important or we wouldn't have them. The only reason that people who can not experience all five senses are able to function on about the same level as those with all five senses is that they have adapted and/or society enables them to live a similar life as to that of other people with the use of all five senses.

	07-03-2003 05:31									#166
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Shoundn't we consider splicing human & say dolphin genes together so that we can take advantage of the oceans?

What about human/polar bear hybrids to populate the Arctic/Antarctic?

Or human/marmoset race. By reducing our size, we could keep breeding & depleating resourses, but they would last a lot longer.

	07-03-2003 05:35									#167
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Ahhh, but by splicing genes you are making creatures that aren't human in the biological sense. As such, that's not what the question was about.

	07-03-2003 08:09									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Obiwan: So far, it seems to me that I've won the debate. Could you please say to me why is it wrong to genetically fix deseases, and enhance people? Or do you agree with me?

It is wrong to genetically enhance people, because only the rich can be enhanced, thus rendering the already most disadvantaged group even more disadvantaged. Furthermore, even if we have mapped out the entire human geonome, we will not know how to enhance people. AFAIK, a lot of human attributes dependent as much on the environment as on genetics.

	07-03-2003 10:54									#169
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UR: I think your correct here. But what about Darwin and the advance of species? Does it have to be natural selection or should we participate in our own evolvement?

	07-03-2003 15:51									#170
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quote: Coercion does not depend on the state of the acted, but on the actor alone. You don't need to sense, or to know you have been coerced. to coerce: 1 : to restrain or dominate by force Hence, one can coerce a child through force, just as one can coerce an embryo through force.

As I've said, the only thing wrong about coercing something, is the fact they feel bad about it. A zygote can't feel bad about it.

quote: What's the difference? The two are one side of the same coin. C'mon, say what this therapy can be used for. You've already eliminated some forms of blindness.

You really want me to list all of them? There are scores of genetic deseases. Please don't force me to make you a complete list. just search for it in google.

quote: What about thalassema? This technique of research only works for those diseases without multiple affected genes. Thalassema is one where genomes are less helpful than ordinary family studies.

The problem is still genetic, and thus can be corrected.

quote: You see, when we compare two genomes, the so-called healthy person will differ from the 'carrier' along many bases. How would one tell which bases correspond to the disease?

You take thousands of people, carriers and control group, check, analize, etc. That's the way the genome itself was mapped.

quote: You would need to have a good idea of the effected people through epidemiological studies already avaible without genetic techniques.

How would that provide a cure?

quote: What? Disabled people discriminate against society?

no, they're given preffered treatment by the society. I should've said "on the contrary".

quote: Not true. In a blind society there would be no roles where sight would make any difference. If anything, they'd be at a disadvantage because everything would be written in brail, and they would not be able to relate to others as easily.

This is not correct. There are lots of ways in which people with sight will have an enormous edge over blind people. This is why sight has survived throughout the eons, and advanced to our levels, which are quite high. And if people with sight can learn to read Brail without much difficulty. They could just see the dots, for example, and learn to read them the same way we read regular alphabet.

quote: I thought I made this pretty clear already - there is no room for disabled people in it. (Which is why society must support them)

What do you mean by "there is no room?" Disabled people simply cannot compete with ordinary people. Not in this society, not in any other. This is the only reason they are being helped.

Uncle Sparky: MacTbone pretty much answered it.

UR:

quote: It is wrong to genetically enhance people, because only the rich can be enhanced, thus rendering the already most disadvantaged group even more disadvantaged.

is it wrong treat for HIV only people that can afford it ? yes.
Is it wrong to treat people for HIV ? no.

It is not the treatment that is unfair, it is the way resources are distributed.

quote: AFAIK, a lot of human attributes dependent as much on the environment as on genetics.

I am speaking about those that depend on genetics the most. "Stupidity is genetic" is something that Watson said, that hasn't been proven yet. I am talking about what will happen if it is proven correct.

quote: Furthermore, even if we have mapped out the entire human geonome, we will not know how to enhance people

This is the current stage, but genetic engineering is advancing at quantum leaps.

	07-03-2003 19:02									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel is it wrong treat for HIV only people that can afford it ? yes. Is it wrong to treat people for HIV ? no. It is not the treatment that is unfair, it is the way resources are distributed.

The treatment is unfair if it aggravates the inherent unfairness instead of being neutral.

Also, notice making more intelligent is not really a treatment for a defect, it is an enhancement much like cosmetic surgery.

(Yes I realise that some defects can be treated by cosmetic surgery, but I am not talking about those.)

	07-03-2003 19:15									#172
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quote: The treatment is unfair if it aggravates the inherent unfairness instead of being neutral.

It's just the same with any other treatment. if there are poor people that are sick, and rich people that can afford to be cured, this aggrivates the unfairness as well, since sick people are less productive, no matter what they do.

quote: Also, notice making more intelligent is not really a treatment for a defect, it is an enhancement much like cosmetic surgery.

is cosmetic surgery wrong?


This said, I believe these treatments should be covered by health insurance.

	08-03-2003 03:27									#173
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Azazel:
Sorry for the delay.

quote: You really want me to list all of them? There are scores of genetic deseases. Please don't force me to make you a complete list.

Just make a distinction between genetic diseases/conditions and genetic enhancement, like I have already stated.

I thought you were in favour of genetic enhancement?

quote: As I've said, the only thing wrong about coercing something, is the fact they feel bad about it. A zygote can't feel bad about it.

So if you coerce someone mentally handicapped, who cannot understand what you are doing, this is right?

quote: The problem is still genetic, and thus can be corrected.

But not by the method you've cited.

quote: How would that provide a cure?

Prevent two carriers from marrying each other.
No genetic engineering required.

	08-03-2003 04:02									#174
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quote: Just make a distinction between genetic diseases/conditions and genetic enhancement, like I have already stated. I thought you were in favour of genetic enhancement?

I am. probably I haven't understood you correctly. nevermind.

quote: So if you coerce someone mentally handicapped, who cannot understand what you are doing, this is right?

If he doesn't feel bad about it, and you're not being cruel to him, which will harm you, no there is nothing wrong about it.

quote: But not by the method you've cited.

I've cited no methods. there is a way to establish what are the genes that cause the desease, and therefore there is a way to change them.

quote: Prevent two carriers from marrying each other. No genetic engineering required.

It's good to know that you can stop two people in love from marrying but have no problem with a painless, benefiting procesdure.

Why not genetically engineer the baby to be healthy, and so that neither he or his/her children will have to worry about such a thing, or even worse, suffer from a desease, that will make thier lives more difficult?

	08-03-2003 04:27									#175
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Azazel:

quote: and you're not being cruel to him, which will harm you, no there is nothing wrong about it.

So the key is not the ability of the coerced to percieve, but the intent of the coercer.

quote: It's good to know that you can stop two people in love from marrying but have no problem with a painless, benefiting procedure.

What about Tay-Sachs? What's the Jewish policy regarding marriage between carriers?

quote: I've cited no methods. there is a way to establish what are the genes that cause the desease, and therefore there is a way to change them.

quote: Obiwan: as I've said REPEATEDLY, and this is also a reply to your '', these procedures are done at the zygote level, before even an embr[y]o is developed.

	08-03-2003 04:50									#176
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quote: So the key is not the ability of the coerced to percieve, but the intent of the coercer

Not quite. The results of the action are the ones to judge the ethical value of the action. If someone is coerced, and doesn't know about it, and never will, there is nothing wrong with that. However if the coercer's behavior changes, making him a less beneficial memeber of society, the action is wrong.

quote: What about Tay-Sachs? What's the Jewish policy regarding marriage between carriers?

I don't know about the 'Jewish' policy, I know how it is done in Israel ( which often doesn't correspond with the jewish policy). People are tested before having a baby, and if they're carriers (obviously only a single genetic appearance, not two, the one who carry two, have the syndrome and die in their childhood ) are made aware of the risk. they're allowed to have the baby, and will have an abortion if the baby has a double appearance.

Wouldn't it be better if all of this was prevented?

quote:

well, if you count it as describing a method, yes. But there was no method described, just a point in time, when the procedure is made.

And in that case to the previous question:

quote: But not by the method you've cited.

Is incorrect. why wouldn't it? all we'd have to do is to engineer a certain number of genes instead of a single one.

	08-03-2003 07:08									#177
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MacTBone - Good point. After all, we do share 50% of our genes with bananas and about 97% with lab rats. All we need to do is activate dormant strands of DNA to have the same effect as gene splicing. Imagine - a functional appendix !!!

Of course we can also modify future generations of humans to thrive on smog and depleted uranium.

	08-03-2003 14:03									#178
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no we cannot.

	08-03-2003 14:15									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel It's just the same with any other treatment. if there are poor people that are sick, and rich people that can afford to be cured, this aggrivates the unfairness as well, since sick people are less productive, no matter what they do.

That's the thing, it's not like any other treatment. Suppose there is this gadget you can by with $10m, and it gaurantees you make you $100m. What that means is the rich gets richer because money allows them to access exclusive resources (such as enhanced intelligence), and these resources make them richer still.

This is not the same as getting a cure for an illness, which should be covered by social medical schemes in a well developed country.

quote: Originally posted by Azazel is cosmetic surgery wrong?

Depends on what do you mean by "wrong." If it allows the have's to get even more, it seems ethically questionable.

	08-03-2003 15:21									#180
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personally, I only support genetic engineering in order for the prevention of infections and the like. However, it could never be perfectly possible, as testing could involve a loss in human life.